Lately the water pressure pump keeps turning on frequently. Like every half hour.
And it stays on for a long time. I thought there was a leak somewhere of water.
So last night I turned off that booster pump at the circuit breaker. I expected no water pressure in the morning.
And yet this morning there was plenty of water pressure. What else could cause the water pump to be constantly cycling on?
Do you know what the pressure readings are when it kicks on and when it kicks off? You called it a booster pump. That implies that there is another pump ahead of it. Is that right? Is it pumping air? My first off the wall guess would be a pressure switch malfunction.
Good question.
All I know is that I tested the bladder pressure with a bicycle PSI meter when I recently replaced a "plug" that blew out in the back of the water pump.
That 1-inch diameter pipe plug was white plastic and it apparently worked its way out over time (probably since the pump was put there decades ago).
Earlier this week I lost thousands of gallons of water out that open one-inch threaded hole in the back of the pressure pump before I knew what was happening.
I picked up a one inch galvanized plug from Home Depot but it wasn't tapered so it wouldn't fit. I went to a plumbing specialty supply store which had brass, galvanized, and what they called "black metal" tapered one inch plugs.
I bought the brass (it just seemed better) but it screwed down almost the entire way into the plug hole so it weeps a little bit of water. I had only put maybe two or three wraps of Teflon tape so maybe I need to wrap it more.
Since I had the whole thing down for a day there was no pressure whatsoever at the house so I measured the bladder pressure at 20 PSI (which I thought was low but it's the lowest it will ever be because the water was out for a day while I was running around to stores).
I don't know if it's the pressure switch so I'm looking up how to test that. I will try to get some readings today as this problem only started after I had replaced that one plug.
I don't think the white plastic 1-inch plug "blew out" by the way, but only based on observation that the threads weren't stripped. It would screw back in if I had wanted to re-use it, but it was also melted at one point and was pin holed by that melt so I didn't want to risk re-using it.
I don't know what to call it but it's the only pressure pump. The water comes from the well to the tanks by one pump. And then the tanks feed what I'm calling the booster pump. I guess I should call it a pressure pump instead.
The pressure pump has an on/off pressure switch on it. That pressure switch turns the pressure pump on and off.
From there it goes into a human sized pressure tank with a bladder. The air valve on top read 22psi when the pipes were open so it can't get lower than that. The 22psi is the pressure inside the air bladder.
I think it's supposed to be maybe 10 pounds higher so I can pump it up once I check that out. I wonder if that alone caused the problem but I haven't touched that part of the system and it wasn't happening (that I know of) before I replaced the plugs.
But I can't see how replacing the plugs caused the problem either. I haven't measured the water pressure at the house but it spurts out good.
I don't know if it's pumping air but I don't think there is air in this system other than, perhaps, maybe the weeping brass plug is causing air to be sucked in.
Thanks for your questions. Today I'm going to run a pressure test.
I'd make sure that's fixed right before worrying about the pump turning on.
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 12:35:49 -0200, dan posted for all of us to digest...
Make certain you have the correct plug. It might be a straight tread instead of a pipe thread.
Use more and get some Megaloc. That will do it.
Testing the pressure switch is easy. What is the rating 30-50 or 40-60 or something else. When the pressure drops low it turns the pump on when it reaches the cutoff it shuts off. If you want take the cover off and measure voltage and current at the load side. Make sure the switch and nipple don't have any leaks. If you take the switch off make sure the nipple is clear, then just replace the switch. Tape & Megaloc.
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to recover?
I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix or diagram on a hosting site?
I am not a plumber but I have my own well so I have some familiarity with this.
Stay crusty...
That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump. I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually overheats. Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads intact.
I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal plug. Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection. I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind. I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick.
This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly. Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe wrench. No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever stopping.
I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running. That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from. There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump turned off.
There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever. Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"? Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too?
BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure. Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure. But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running.
I lost some air constantly testing the bladder. Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water?
I'll take some pictures for you. What site is a good one that most people use?
This one works.
That hissing sound might be a clue. Can you hook an air compressor into your system somewhere to pressurize the system? Don't let it pressurize above 50 pounds or so to avoid blowing things apart. It would be nice if you could plug the air into the system somewhere besides the plug you're working with.
This is probably what made the plastic plug pop out without stripping.
I think it's not getting to cutoff pressure because I measured it more closely and it took less than five minutes to go from 20psi to 52psi but the pump wouldn't shut off.
Once off, the pressure remains for hours (overnight is no problem but half a day with water use it what it took so it was only two manual pressure cycles for the whole day today, with showers and washing dishes included).
I think I found the source of the hissing which seems to be an air flow on the pipe that connects to the bottom of the pressure switch. That pipe I thought might contain water since it comes off the top of the pump but it likely contains air. It seems to be the pressure that the switch senses.
It's way down at the floor level only an inch off the concrete so it's hard to tell but I can put my hand there and feel a slight flow of air even as I can't pinpoint the hissing due to the pump noise (it doesn't hiss with the pump off).
What I might do tomorrow is buy a new pressure switch and see how that pipe connects to it. Or, I may just tighten up the pipe fittings. I don't know how these fail so I don't know what is the most likely to be successful.
I can post pictures but I have to sign up for imagur first I think.
Put a balloon or a condom on it and see how quickly it inflates.
Thanks for that information.
I'll set it at 27 psi given that the gray cap says the switch is a "Pumptrol, SquareD, control circuit A600, Type FSG-2, Form U, class 9013, Ser B, On 30, off 50" but I don't know yet how the air pipe connects to the bottom.
Searching I think it's may be this one at Amazon
The pressure switch has printing inside the cap saying it's 30 to 50psi. The bladder is only at about 20 psi now (slowly dropping as I use a tester). It doesn't seem to matter how long the pump runs - it tops out at 52psi.
It's critical for me to figure out if water or air is supposed to be in that pipe that comes from the top of the pump and goes to the bottom of the pressure switch.
If it's air, then that's the problem as I can feel the hissing. But if it's supposed to be water - then there's a different problem.
Now that I swapped the two 1 inch plugs there's no longer any water leak. But the air leak exists and the pump doesn't shut off.
The water valves to and away from the pump are open (save for the emergency bypass water valve which is closed).
Easier said than done. It's an inch from the concrete in a maze of pipes.
The most important thing is to find out whether the pressure switch uses air or water because if it's water something else must be wrong.
The gray cap says the switch is a "Pumptrol, SquareD, control circuit A600, Type FSG-2, Form U, class 9013, Ser B, On 30, off 50" is all I know.
I agree. The pump isn't getting the signal to turn off. It is getting a signal to turn on though.
It's this one I'm pretty sure.
They all seem to work when I tested them with the power on using a screwdriver to push. I think it's the air leaking.
I need to find out if air or water is supposed to be in that pipe.
Let me know if the imgur image uploads works.
The pressure at the bladder is 52psi. I can't tell the pressure at the pump because the pressure gauge is stuck.
The main question I have is how to DIY the replacement of the pressure switch given I don't even know if it's air or water in the copper pipe.
Never any air in any line at the house or at the garden hoses.
Here are some pictures showing the pump and the copper pressure pipe.
I think the one inch plastic plug overheated because the pump wasn't shutting off except by thermal cutoff after hours of running wild.
At the same time a garden hose blew out in the middle so I think the pressure may have gone sky high (but I don't know that for a fact).
No bubbles. I think the copper pipe is "supposed" to carry air. But I don't know that though. I wish I knew for sure.
But everything is working except the pump shutting off.
I've never seen air in any water output.
Garden hose? The one connected to the house? No air in them. I'm positive.
I don't think it's air in the water.
Take a look at the pictures. The main question is WHAT is supposed to be inside that copper pipe? air or water
Maybe. I may have to disassemble the pressure switch but I was leaning toward just replacing it (but Home Depot doesn't have them in stock).
That's a good idea. With the pump running I loosened the top copper nut. Water squirted out, clearly under pressure within a few turns. So that pipe is definitely carrying water under pressure.
Interestingly at the same time I _removed_ the dial gauge (to clean it). There is NOTHING coming out of the dial gauge hole. Not air. Not water. Even when the pump is running for a few minutes.
I plan on replacing the switch but you have a point that if it's not the switch, at least playing with the adjustments can pinpoint if that's the problem, or if the pump can't get up to cutoff pressure (it may have overheated).
I hadn't thought of the problem being the pump until you mentioned that.
I will look up HOW that switch works because there are three or so different adjust> By the way, your pump probably ran till the water in it boiled, and that
I think you're right when I look at the distorted plastic plug.
At first I thought it was two different threads, big and little. But now I realize it blew up like a balloon until it finally failed.
That's probably why the pinhole in it which is the failure from heat. Somehow, eventually, it worked its way out - maybe from the water pressure on the pinhole "spinning" it out (if that's even possible) as these things are in there really tightly.
The inner end was likely confined by the threads in the pump. So the outer end was ballooned only.
I didn't think of this until you said it and I 100% agree with you. It must have been HOT.
I hadn't thought of that but it's a good idea to lower the set pressure.
Unfortunately when I REMOVED the stuck gauge with the pump running NOTHING came out (I was trying to determine if it was clogged and I was trying to tell if it sensed water or air). There was some gunk (not much) in the hole of the pump and no gunk to speak of in the gauge hole.
I find it odd that the side of the pump with the guage (which looks EXACTLY like the side of the pump with the copper hose (they seem symmetric) has NOTHING coming out of it at the same time that the copper side has water pressure when I loosened the bolt.
My tentative conclusion is the gauge side is blocked somehow - or - since the gauge never worked - maybe it isn't designed to have pressure???????
I need to buy a water pressure gauge that goes on the end of a garden hose. I do know that when the bladder shows only about 25 psi the water pressure in the house is ok and when the bladder is at about 30 psi the water pressure in the house is fine.
Could it also be the air pressure > Just had another thought. Could the air noise you are hearing be from
You are probably right. The hiss may be from my imagination since it's really hard to hear given the pump is running - and the air that I can feel is very little - like the puff you do with a baby before you dunk it into the water (to get it to close its mouth).
The constant puff of air I can feel at the bottom of the pressure switch is probably just air from the motor running.
The problems I can fix now are: |1| I can pressurize the bladder to 28psi when the pump is off and no pressure. |2| I can watch the operating of the pressure switch when the pump goes on. |3| I can lower the low/high pressure to something like 30/40 psi.
The mysteries that have been solved are: |1| The distorted plug probably ballooned from pressure & heat. |2| The bad gauge never moving is because there is no pressure on that side. |3| The copper pipe to the pressure switch definitely has water in it (not air).
The mysteries that remain are: |1| Why does the pressure gauge side of the motor have nothing coming out? |2| Is it lack of pressure or a bad switch preventing the motor from turning off? |3| Was the plastic 1-inch plug originally there as a safety valve?
Thanks for explaining it should be water but it can handle air.
There is definitely water squirting out under pressure when I loosened the copper nut at the pump side when the pump is running.
Something may be plugged since the top of the pump looks symmetric but when I pull out the gauge completely (to clean things out) there is NOTHING coming out of the gauge hole even when the pump is running.
That's why the gauge isn't working.
It's reading a constant 60psi but I banged it a bit after I pulled it out and now it reads a constant 40psi but it's just a broken gauge as it reads that even when held in my hands (but it always was stuck).
The mystery to me is why there's nothing coming out of the gauge hole when there is water coming out of the (symmetric?) pressure pipe hole.
Thanks for the advice on the switch replacement. I have to find out if a different Home Depot has them in stock.
I can get a gauge too but it may be useless with nothing coming out. I probably may need to start looking at sourcing a new pump too.
That's good advice. Thanks. It sure does look flimsy compared to the rest. (Those steel plugs are built like they were for WWII tanks.)
That's good to know. When I loosened the nut for the copper pipe at the pump I didn't see any pipe dope but it didn't occur to me that the reason was it's a compression fitting.
Good to know.
I think the air was a red herring. It only happens when the pump is running. I think the air that I can feel is from the pump fan as you suggested prior.
Yes. With the pump running the copper pipe is carrying water under pressure.
Some cut.
Try Ace Hardware or another place like it.
More cut.
Note that the marked values are as shipped from the factory. They're often adjusted in the field. Watch the gauge when it starts and stops to see what the adjusted values are.
I agree. Completely. And therefore I will do that next!
After pressurizing the bladder to 28psi I let the pressure pump run to see if it would cut off, and the pressure (at the top of the blue tank) went up very quickly (within a minute) to 35psi and then within another minute to 50 psi but even after ten minutes of the pump running it never exceeded 52psi (and the pump never turned off).
So that's one mystery of why the pump doesn't get higher than 52psi as measured at the top of the blue bladder tank. The other (perhaps related?) mystery is why the pressure at the gauge on the pump is literally zero (no air, no water).
I removed the gauge and let the pump run and NOTHING came out. Huh?
Given the pump /can't/ get higher than 52psi, then lowering the pressure switch shutoff may prove that everything /else/ is working (but the pump).
Therefore I agree the next thing I should try is lower the shutoff pressure.
I don't have instructions on the cover but they are here & you are right.
Each full center nut rotation is 2 to 3 psi change of the 20# range.
I will probably drop it lower than I really need to just to debug. Then bring it up later as close to the 30:50 as I can get it.
When I change the cutout pressure point I have to measure the results. Is the pressure at the top of the blue bladder tank an accurate pressure?
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