Water pressure pump keeps turning on

[dan]

It must be that because otherwise why would there be zero anything? It must have been plugged for many years as I've never seen it move.

When I opened it up I cleaned out what I could. There wasn't much and it was gooey (not hard). Not even a teaspoon full.

The threaded hole isn't deep so the passageways must be to the side. I don't think I can get to them. It might be difficult to take apart this part of the pump mechanism. It may not be worth it just to get the gauge working.

The gauge is stuck at 40 psi now (before it was around 60psi or 70). If it's plugged it's not in the first 1-1/2 inches as a paperclip goes up.

I don't mind replacing the gauge with an oil filled gauge if I can find one. But if there's no pressure in the hole the gauge isn't going to matter.

One question is how accurate is the pressure measured at the bladder? That's EASY to measure.

But is that the true water pressure? I don't know.

I agree with all of your advice as you are logically sound.

I had loosened the short bolt 3/8th inch nut by 5 turns (which should lower the high end cutoff by about 10 pounds) but the pump still ran on forever.

So if the 20# range was previously at 40 to 60, now it would be 30 to 50.

After adjusting the upper end smaller bolt, I lowered the whole range by five turns (loosened big bolt nut) so if it was 40 to 60 originally, and if it's 30 to 50 now, then it would be 30 to 40 now. (I don't know what it was set at prior so I'm just giving examples.)

With the range lowered by 5 turns and the upper end lowered by 5 turns I'm hoping to test what will happen. I will respond back when I find out.

Given EVERYTHING else around it is built like a Sherman tank, I have to wonder if the plumber who put that plastic plug in knew what he was doing.

Then again, the motor says it has a safety thermal valve so the motor "should" have shut off - but maybe the pump was cooled enough by the water to prevent the motor from overheating even as the pump may have overheated.

Something pretty major had to happen for that plug to blow out like a balloon (which you noticed before I did) and to still keep the threads which were inside the pump seemingly intact.

Yes. It may be that the pump just can't get past 52 psi which if that's the case I'm fine with the pressure switch turning it off around 40 psi.

What kind of pressure do people normally have in their house anyway?

[dan]

That's a good way of putting it.

The video said the spring on the bigger screw is more forgiving as if we're supposed to be changing these things a lot? I'm surprised they said that.

After both adjustments, the water pressure pump has been cycling on its own!

I only caught it starting once (which I timed at 1-1/2 minutes to shutoff). I tested the pressure at the top of the bladder at the end at 37psi.

It's kind of low but not so low as to make me worry. I'm surprised though that it's that much lower than 52psi given only 5 turns each of the two adjustment screws (the start of the range & its top end).

However it has only been doing this since my last post and I'm busy with other things so I haven't figured out the new on/off/rest interval yet.

But the GOOD NEWS is it's "automatic" again! Your advice to LOWER the cutoff pressure at the switch did the trick!

Oh. That's a great trick! That trick of adjusting it while the pump is running wasn't in the video. (And yes, I'm aware the pump is likely 220 volts and the switch is hot.)

BTW, you can't use a socket on my center bolt because the nut was down too low but it's just a 3/8ths inch nut so an open end wrench works just fine.

As I see it, the two bolts are above a plate where the pressure from below pushes the plate up and the bolts simply hold the spring which pushes down.

Therefore, for debugging, since the pump never shut off, I could have loosened the center range bolt until the pump shut off and then loosened the side topend bolt a few turns to get it to shut off a few psi below that.

That's a great debugging idea to find out exactly where the pump shuts off.

The air in the bladder is easily enough replaced.

It's only slightly inconvenient that I have to let the water pressure go to as close to zero in the house as possible. I don't know the "correct" way to fill the bladder since it will always have some water pressure from the tanks feeding it. But I don't know how much that might be.

I think you solved all the mysteries (except perhaps what changed to cause the problem in the first place but I'm not so worried about that really).

For now, if the gauge on the bladder is good enough, I'm fine but I do agree that having a gauge at the pump is far better as I can watch it drop and then I can see when the pump kicks on and off (although it's not in a convenient spot for watching it).

[Tekkie©]

On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 19:56:00 -0200, dan posted for all of us to digest...

I read all the posts.. whew

Buy and install a new pressure switch and gauge. Use existing piping. Don't bother messing with the old stuff, it's futile and time wasting. Don't bother messing with the bladder tank, you are going into a rabbit hole, you will burn the pump out. The pump can probably only achieve 52 psi and the switch isn't turning it off. Repeat: get switch & gauge & install with tape & Megaloc.

[dan]

Everything you say I can't ever disagree with. Luckily it's nowhere near 52psi anymore.

It's 37 the one time I heard it go on today and then shut off 1-1/2 minutes later. That's far enough away from 52 & yet still in the good range for me.

Yeah. I know. I know. This is a brass dial gauge. I don't want to even test it with a second gauge for the reason that then I'd always be wondering.

Agree in concept. Fully agree in concept.

In practice the gauge has no leeway in the direction it's pointing as it has to go in tightly enough and then not too tight - and that position is facing the wrong way for convenience. Also it's less than a foot off the floor.

It's not easy to see under those conditions.

Plus to clean out the pump at this point probably necessitates taking the pump apart and the damage I could cause doing that is worse than the lack of a gauge (the pump side is built with solid steel like a Sherman tank).

At this point, thanks to following your advice, I've lowered the shutoff point low enough to prove the switch is working (in practice) even though I don't yet know the turnon pressure yet nor the range.

I marked the bolts (they don't turn) and twisted each nut five full turns CCW which loosened the pressure on the springs which are pushing the pressure plate down which the pressure from the pump tries to push up.

Assuming 2psi per turn I lowered the start point by 10 psi (big bolt) and I lowered whatever range it had (nominally 20psi) by dropping the cutoff point by 10 psi.

I just realized the math sort of works out.

Assume the original range was 20psi and assume it was set at 40 to 60. By dropping the range 10psi it would be set at 30 to 50. By dropping the cutoff point by 10 psi it would be set at 30 to 40.

My one test of 37psi fits within that estimate. I'll need time and events to figure this out any better. I don't run the water much except when taking a long shower. The wife & kids use water more than I do so it depends on their activity.

Overall, thank you and the others for your helpful advice. Just the fact it's back to automatic is a weight off my shoulders.

That gives me time to decide what I need to do and to purchase.

[Clare Snyder]

There are 2 settings. A cut in pressure and a cut out pressure. The difference is Hysteresis. Having the hysteresis too low means the pumnp continuously cycles. Lower the cut out pressure to below 52 PSI

- lets say 30. Then set the cut in pressure to about 10 for testing purposes. When the tank drops below 10 the pump will turn on. Whenit reaches 30 it will shut off. Having air in the bladder maintains the

30PSI while the water volume in the tank drops. Without air pressure the water pressure drops immediately when a tap is opened - starting the pump. Now - you need the gauge to read. Generally the guage is on a "damping" orifice to keep the needle from jumping all over the place. If you are not getting air or water to the gauge the orifice is plugged. Findit and poke a wire through it so the water or air can get through to the gauge - and replace the gauge.

If it starts when the pressure frops to 10 and runs untill it hits 30

- and you can see pressure on the gauge, everything is working - adjust the cut out to the specified upper pressure and see if the pumnp cam kick that much pressure. If it can't pump up to the required pressure the pump is worn out and you will need to replace it.

The air pressure at the top of the bell should be equal to the tank water pressure when the tank is full - if there is enough air in the bell / bladder.

[dan]

That makes the most sense to put a reducer bushing going from the top of the pump 1 inch taper to a 3/8" straight to fit a new gauge on top of the pump.

Another good idea from you which I appreciate as I instantly agree.

[dan]

To tell you the truth, I went out there with the wife yelling at me to stop watching that video and just turn the water on and I was writing to you taking time and she got frustrated and said she was going to turn the water on herself (she was doing her Monday cleaning and she likes it just so).

I brought only a set of nut wrenches with me but found that the 3/8" center bolt was too tall so I only was able to loosen the side 3/8" nut the five turns and then I tested to see if the pump shut off.

I am not the first owner so I can only assume the original range was 20psi. If I assume the top end was set at 60 (the nut was far down the bolt), then dropping that top end to 50 should, theoretically, get me below the

52psi the pump was capable of.

The pump didn't stop but that setting is plus or minus a lot of guesswork.

Luckily, given the cleaning chores of the wife, the water soon ran out, so I then loosened the center bolt the five turns, and that's what solved it.

If the top was originally 60 and if I dropped the top by 10 loosening the side nut and then by another 10 loosening the center nut that makes the top end 40 which seems to be just about where it may be.

The range, if it was 20 is now only 10 though, so that makes the kick-on point about 30 which makes the turn on at 30 and the turn off at 40.

It has been working automatically all day since but I haven't been able to catch it on the start since I'm doing things around the house. It may take a few days before I get a feeling of what the new interval is but I'm ok with the one observed 1-1/2 minute running to 37 psi.

BTW, she asked me what happens to a washing machine when water runs low? I told her I didn't know. Do you?

I can do that and I very well might do that as that was the original plan. What I will do is get an idea of the cycles during this week & then decide.

For visibility nothing beats the top of the blue bladder tank. Do they sell bicycle gauges that screw into the valve but which don't leak?

Yes. It's not all that great but it's there. When I shut that main valve (which is just a foot from the pump inlet) to put the 1-inch plugs in, I noticed water still came through at a good clip - maybe at the clip where it would take a minute to fill a glass of water. So those valves are leaky.

Logical. I must agree.

Oh I put it back right away. No problem there.

Maybe. But I like your idea of a gauge in the 1-inch tapered hole on the top of the pump better. Nice & solid and nothing to gunk up inside.

[dan]

Thanks to the help here the problem has a workaround which was first suggested by BobF I believe, which was to lower the pressure switch set points.

With that one change, the water pressure motor & pump has been turning on and off automatically for 24 hours now, and while the motor must be turning on and off as water is used I haven't caught it in the act more than once.

I'll try to do things around the yard that are near that motor to try to get a good handle on timing how often and how long it runs & let people who helped me know the results as a courtesy to them.

Thank you - your help was instrumental in diagnosing & working around the problem which appears to be an aging water pump that can no longer reach the previous high pressure set point which was apparently well over 52 psi.

[dan]

With water constantly running I determined that the turn on is 27psi. The turn off is 37 psi in about a minute and a half (a bit less).

It takes about 15 minutes to cycle with water running. Cycle time can be from hours to never (with no water running anyway).

BTW, your advice was logical and sound from the start in that I really didn't need to loosen the upper level (side smaller bolt nut) because having a 20 pound range is likely better than having a 10 pound range.

With 20 pounds there will be fewer cycles but to tell you the truth, the wife and kids don't even notice the new situation versus the old one.

The only switch I would consider is an exact replacement so the price is not meaningful in terms of what it is that I'm buying. They're about 25 bucks give or take online which isn't a problem in the least.

I was going to replace the switch & gauge but the switch is more work to replace than to just leave it there :-) so if it's working, I'm inclined to leave it alone now (other than to increase the range back to 20 psi).

The gauge isn't working, but no gauge will given the passageways of the pump housing must be clogged and I don't want to break things trying to fix a gauge, so I'm inclined to leave that too. :-)

Thank you very much for your advice. Everything you suggested was sensible.

I don't think the switch is the problem because with the pump running forever the pressure never increased over 52psi which doesn't really have anything to do with the switch and I'm told by friends that these pumps can do well over 52psi (and it must have been high at one point given the set point prior to this problem).

Do you know what these pumps are capable of in terms of high pressure?

[dan]

Water comes in from the tank to the pump to the one and only blue bladder. Then it goes to the house.

I don't know what it's called so if I call it a "pressure pump" or a "booster pump" it means the same thing to me.

But those words may have different meaning to you. There is only one of each item.

[dan]

The storage tank is about fifteen feet tall and on the same concrete platform as the pressure pump which is about fifteen feet above the house on a hill.

That fifteen feet isn't enough to make the water run all that much inside the house with the pump off (just a dribble).

Too bad as it would be nice to dispense altogether with the pressure pump.

[Joe the Plumber]

If you have galvanized pipe or fittings in this system, be sure to check they haven't corroded shut.