Tricky eBay Transaction

[Gini]

wrote .......................... Let's say you have a VISA with Citibank.

== That is not correct.

[trader4]

" This seller is using this auction as a "sell-through" for the balance of the materials normally needed to finish the project, while only paying eBay fees for the "limited amount" of material offered via the auction (which is precisely what he told the OP during previous communications)."

Well, I must have missed that. Which post was it where you provided the Ebay rule? I'd like to see where it's defined that if I sell say a camera and then find out through emails that the guy also wants a tripod, which I happen to have, that I have to sell it to him through Ebay. Link please?

And if you understand the Ebay rule so well, then why can't you answer the question about what happens if I list shingles for sale and then find out the guy who's buying the shingles also needs felt and nails? Must I put them through Ebay?

and the auction specifics that violated that rule. This

Funny then that you didn't answer the question I posed about the nails.

I never said it was fee avoidance. But those listings also have the statements that they have other products, other colors available, don't they? And they don't turn into fee avoidance. My point was that some auctions are ultimately dealt with that way. How do you know if Frugal goes to the seller and says I want 15 boxes of those shingles the seller won't put up a listing for 15 boxes?

I asked in the hopes of seeing how you would go about selling those shingles according to the rules. It seems everyone wants this guy reported, booted, God knows what, but they can't answer what should be simple questions themselves.

[Gini]

== That does not address the statement you made above. I never said "the seller ever told the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees." == .............................................. ==

== Indeed you did. == Which post was it where you provided

== My advice that you research eBay "Help" if you are still confused stands. ==

== Yes. == ...............................................

== No need. You can research via eBay "Help" files. That is why they exist. ==

................................ == All your questions *of merit* have been answered here. See eBay "Help" to resolve any further confusion you may have pertaining to eBay rules. Hey. I know--ask on alt.marketing.online.ebay. They are real friendly folks over there who love helping newbies. == ==

[<h>]

But please show me where they say a seller

I&#39;ve already posted the relevant quote from eBay, and you blew it off. Look it up for yourself in the "Help" section. WU is NO LONGER ALLOWED by eBay for transactions.

Plonk.

[trader4]

and use the credit card. The stuff

Yeah, and in typical fashion, 4 words is all you could write. No explanation to back it up required. Well Frugal checked with his bank and that was the answer they gave him and reported in this thread. And I&#39;ve been down that exact route with Citibank over a Paypal transaction. I knew that was going to be the answer before I even called them.

Why on earth would you expect the credit card company to be responsible? The transaction they engaged in with their merchant (Paypal) was perfectly legitimate. They have nothing to do with the fact that you told Paypal to send the money to someone the credit card company has no contract with and could be any jerk with a Paypal account in some 3rd world country.

If people listen to the clueless like you, they could be hurt badly.

[trader4]

The statement above that I cited sure seems to say it. It ends with "which is precisely what he told the OP during previous communications." And also, let me point out that the OP never said that in the previous transaction the seller didn&#39;t include materials normally needed to finish the project. As I asked you before, and you refuse to answer, what exactly determines the items I must kit together according to you or better yet Ebay? I asked if I sell shingles, and in the course of emails, it turns out the guy asks me if I sell nails, must I then list them on Ebay? A simple YES or NO?

.......................................

Yes, because you never did.

it&#39;s defined that if I sell say

No link, just more BS.

that violated that rule. This

Strange that that for someone who claims to know so much, you can&#39;t answer that simple question about whether I have to list the nails with Ebay.

Maybe you should go there and get the answer to the nail question and get back to us.

[Frugal Farmer]

I don&#39;t want to step on anybody&#39;s toes, so just relax and don&#39;t bite my head off, shoot my dog or electrocute my cat over nothing. This information and clarification I provide is for future reference to those who may need it. Not to inflame another war.

My basic goal was to get steel shingles and not get duped by an unscrupulous seller. I found what I was looking for on eBay. Many recommended I use credit card as I will be protected. Many of you also here recommended I don&#39;t deal with that eBay seller and go elsewhere as he doesn&#39;t appear to be legit and the use of credit cards wont protect me. Sound advice so why am I still here? For exactly the same reason as everybody else - so I can create and negotiate my own price instead of being told what the price is.

Anyway, I found out from my visa cust. service dept. this morning that my basic, no-fee visa, as a rule of thumb, does NOT protect me for THIS kind of purchase and I am on my own since terms of the purchase are clearly spelled out - protected up to $200 and on the hook for the rest. The charge wont (will NOT) be reversed unless I can prove fraud occurred.

That said, I was also told that if I provide documentation (sales contract) prior to the transaction taking place, my visa will "clear the path" for this purchase. I gather this purchase becomes C.O.D. if the bank knows ahead of time who, what, when, how.. In that case YES, I am protected and they WILL reverse the entire charge regardless what paypal offers ($200).

In fact, my visa wants to know about all shady and out of the ordinary transactions prior to the purchase taking place so banks have time to freeze funds until the transaction completes successfully and everybody makes good on the sales contract. In their own words, it is a fraction of the effort and cost to prevent damage as opposed to unwinding damage after the fact.

That was the first half of my puzzle. The second half of the puzzle was how to make the seller compromise so it is a win-win situation rather than him holding all the cards once he gets all my money.

As everybody knows by now, it is not possible to complete the entire purchase on eBay as only one part (shingles) of the entire assembly (ridges, nails, clips, gables, valleys, felt, shingles,...) are being offered by the seller. There is a considerable risk in buying all these parts separately due to availability or color mismatch as all is manufactured in small lots. The seller (and buyer) knows that. Therefore, the entire package of parts needs to be negotiated off-line. And Gini found the key to the whole issue here:

== Yes. ==

Had I known then that instead of arguing with the seller about (not)paying via WU off-line I could have forced him back to the eBay table and pay with visa once I notified my bank this transaction is going down, you all could have been focusing on other more important things in alt.house.repair, like JoeSpareBedroom&#39;s meds.

Furthermore, I now realize this was the wrong place to ask an eBay question. I had no idea this alt.marketing.online.ebay was in existence.

Also, I can see alt.house.repair is not the right place to ask my next question - what eBay rule I use to force the off-line deal through eBay auction as for a fact I know somebody will shit on my head because I am taking them away from JoeSpareBedroom&#39;s "dancing with the losers" saga - an appropriate topic for a Bob Villa tv show.

So that&#39;s where I am going next but I tell you this, it was no fun getting dumped on just for asking an innocent newbie question.

Nice work. the OP gets it now and is signing off. See you in alt.ebay.

[trader4]

So you got two very different answers to your question in two days. You reported yesterday that the answer was that VISA would not cover the transaction through Paypal because the charge was legitimately placed by Paypal, (the merchant who they have a contract with), and then sent on to some other party who you actually have the problem with. Today, they tell you they will, but only if you either

1 - Prove fraud occurred. But the question is, fraud by whom? They could later very easily say that means that the fraud has to be by their merchant, Paypal. And Paypal wasn;t the fraud. 2 - Do some special documented transaction through VISA.

You can see the problem here. You got two different answers to the same question in 24 hours. And neither of them says what many people here are claiming, which is that if you just use a credit card through Paypal on their website, like everyone would, you don&#39;t have the credit card protection that you would if you used it directly with a merchant who takes VISA.

And if this winds up screwed, what happens when the next person at VISA tells you something different? This isn&#39;t a simple issue and I would not trust what anyone told me verbally as you have no proof later. I&#39;d want to see VISA&#39;s policy in writing that explicitly deals with Paypal transactions.

The only thing I can tell you is I had this exact problem with a Paypal transaction through Citibank VISA. I bought a set of alloy wheels on Ebay that was clearly and seriously misrepresented as being like new. I used the VISA on Paypal. The picture of the item was of different wheels, probably brand new ones, and definitely not the ones being sold which were old, dirty, serious curb rash, dings, etc. Instead of like new, they were worse than the ones I had on the car. The answer I got from Citibank VISA was clear. They considered Paypal the legitimate charger, the transaction was vailid and they would not get involved.

Ultimately, after a long dispute process with Paypal and Ebay, I did get most of my money back. I still did not get back shipping, had to pay for return shipping and all told, I probably lost $40 on a $175 transaction.

The other thing you will learn if you go through this process is unlike VISA, which has someone to answer the phone, with Paypal you&#39;re talking to a server. I never spoke with anyone during the entire dispute process You shuffled off to an electronic robot type system that tries to resolve everything with minimal human intervention.

The safest solution to your problem is an escrow service. Check it out on Ebay. I think escrow.com is their recommended escrow service. The only problems are most sellers won&#39;t go through the hassle and of course someone has to pay the fee.

follow a special documentation procedure for the

I&#39;d still like to see on Ebay where it specifies that. Sears, for example, sells items like air compressors on Ebay. If I want a hose with it, is it a violation of Ebay policy for them to sell it to me via their online or walk-in store?

I can understand if you were deliberatly splitting up a major part of the sale, but I can&#39;t believe Ebay demands that if a guy asks me for nails, which were never listed, in addition to the shingles, that I have to then list that on Ebay. Zillions of companies are selling all kind of stuff like this and have online stores. How the hell is anybody supposed to keep track of which channel someone is buying accesories?

You just contact the seller, tell him exactly what you want, and ask him to put it up on Ebay as a fixed price listing which you can then buy. If he won&#39;t, then I&#39;d say that&#39;s the end of it. Do you want to do business with someone that you have to force to even start doing an ethical transaction? The fact that he only has 10 feedbacks and I think most of them were as buyer would be my main concern. I&#39;d never do business for a major purchase with someone with so little feedback. I might buy a $10 widget, but not $3500 worth of material, unless you do the escrow or can pick it up and pay then. And any legitimate business seller should understand that.

[Gini]

== Your lack of comprehension is not my problem == It ends with

=== I did not "refuse to answer." I told you to go to eBay Help files if you are still confused. You failed to do that. Your problem. === I asked if I sell

I answered YES. You must be reading every other line.

[Frugal Farmer]

- yes, that&#39; right. And they said the same today. And they&#39;re getting mighty sick of me calling in asking the same question. I give them my card# and they pull up a history of my calls and then repeat what was said the last time. My basic, no-fee visa doesnt have the protection of perhaps gold/platinum or whatever cards. Especially in a case when paypal clearly said - insured up to $200 - buyer beware. And I didnt purchase their (visa) "purchase protection insurance". Therefore, if I "just pay" for something, dispute it a few weeks later, I will not get the same attention as somebody else with additional perks on his card.

fraud as in not shipping or not intending to ship or shipping empty box, etc. No protection for damaged, missing or some other debate able reason. Their main point is that it is a lot of hassle for my bank to hold somebody responsible when the money is already gone. The bank wont eat it and paypal wont eat it since the seller already spent it.

yes, visa specifically wants to review the sales contract and description of goods beforehand to process a potential claim. It becomes a secure sale, in effect C.O.D. Eventhough, the seller (probably) gets a confirmation he is getting money, he cannot use the money until he delivers. Once I sign for goods, the funds are released. again, dont shoot me just because this is how my bank/visa does it. It might be different for everybody else.

- not really. just two different options how to conduct an online purchase.

ebay/paypal are probably exceptions to the general rule due to their size and convoluted way of processing payments. they have the weight behind them to negotiate their own terms and do things their way.

my visa logs history and contents of phone calls

I asked too and visa didnt provide anything. Just told me to deal directly with cust. service (visa) before engaging in shady transactions that dont look straight forward.

- each bank has its own way of resolving disputes; especially if they also sell insurance, charge purchase protection fees, etc. Also the paypal rules are convoluted. see here:

3/4 down, paragraph VII - 5 (credit cards)

in a way, that&#39;s what my visa does except the seller doesnt know that if he fails to live up to his end of the contract (deliver what was promised), he wont see the dough.

good idea, i didnt know I had that option

he already provided me with a quote, invoice, terms, conditions, etc. (i am looking at it right now) so at this point I want him to deliver what he promised to deliver or admit he is a crook. At this point I am so irate for wasting so much time on this and being flamed so many times for asking what I thought were legit questions that this time I need to shit on somebody too. And I am ready to send the seller&#39;s invoices and sales contract to ebay if I find out exactly who wants them.

that&#39;s because he conducts business off-line and uses eBay to advertise his goods. Those Tamko shingles have been on his eBay since at least March/07.

I really struggle to understand why he conducts his business "cash only". Perhaps he doesnt have any inventory/warehouse and doesnt want to take responsibility if something goes wrong.

[trader4]

I&#39;m not confused. I simply have not seen anything on Ebay&#39;s policies that say if I&#39;m selling an item that I&#39;ve listed, and in the course of that transaction the buyer asks if I have something else to sell, that I MUST THEN DO THAT TRANSACTION BY LISTING IT ON EBAY.

The example I gave was if I&#39;m selling 15 packs of shingles on Ebay and the buyer then asks if I happen to have a case of nails he needs, do I have to then list those nails on Ebay and not sell them direct? Your answer is YES, all I want is a link to where on Ebay it says that. If you know so much and are correct that should be easy, yet you prefer to avoid it.

So, where is it stated on Ebay? Link please. That would easily settle it.

[jJim McLaughlin]

I call "HITLER" on this thread.

[trader4]

No, Paypal is different because the credit card company has a contractual relationship with Paypal, not the person you had Paypal wire it to after they received the funds on a legitimate processing request from you. It&#39;s almost like taking a cash advance on your CC at an ATM, then taking the cash, buying a fake watch, getting ripped off, and expecting the CC bank to cover it. If this guy took CC directly, then VISA would have a contractual relationship with him, would have checked his credit worthiness, etc. With the money going through Paypal, the CC bank has no way of knowing who the money is sent to or for what.

Which is better than nothing, but you don&#39;t know exactly what is recorded there in a few brief notes or how it will be interpreted if you come calling for $3500 and they aren&#39;t so eager to pay.

here:

about 3/4 down, paragraph VII - 5 (credit cards)

Maybe I&#39;m missing something, but since he wants money in his bank BEFORE he ships, how will he not know that payment hasn&#39;t been received until you agree you are satisfied either way?

You can report him there. If you have a quote for those shingles he sent to you to sell them to you outside of Ebay, it is a clear violation. I&#39;d be very interested in hearing what, if any, response you get, other than a form email back.

Maybe because his credit and banking history is so bad that he the credit card companies won&#39;t do business with him.

[Frugal Farmer]

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:26:37 -0700, jJim McLaughlin

it&#39;s not that I am back after I said I am going over to alt.marketing.online.ebay to pick their brains.

I am just about to place my question in alt.marketing.online.ebay except the core of it is based on this:

being an undisputable fact. Therefore, I do too:

require a confirmation that the above is a fact so I dont make an ass out of myself in front of another group just because somebody doesnt have his/her facts lined up.

Is this it?:

[trader4]

text -

It&#39;s only "it" if you can show me where in either of those links it says that if a guy is selling 15 sq of shingles that are listed on Ebay and in the course of the legitimate Ebay transaction you ask if he also has a box of nails, that he has to sell you those by listing them on Ebay. I don;t see anything that comes close. That was the question that I posed to Gini and so far, aside from her insisting that the answer is Yes, the nails must go through Ebay too, I don;t see anything on Ebay that says it&#39;s true.

Note, I&#39;m not saying that this guy proposing to sell you all the shingles you need, while only listing one box on Ebay is not a violation. I agree that with his giving you a sales agreement for the transaction outside of Ebay it is a violation of Ebay rules. But I&#39;d like to see where it says that if you do a legitimate transaction on Ebay, but learn the buyer wants some additional item, like the nail example, that you then have to put the nails through Ebay.

Or how about a used car dealer that lists and sells some cars on Ebay. If he sells a car that he has listed on Ebay and the buyer buys the car through Ebay, but also asks to have a stereo put in it as a seperate additional item, does that have to go through Ebay?

Until someone shows me where it says otherwise, I say the answer is NO.

[Gini]

wrote ........................

........................

..........................

===== C&#39;mon...aren&#39;t you going to ask the friendly folks at alt.marketing.online.ebay? They love these profoundly complicated questions of great national importance. I&#39;ll bring the popcorn.

[Frugal Farmer]

I follow your argument. I dont have answers for you. I would like to know myself how it works except my visa cust.serv. just about had it with me calling in asking the same question over and over again.

it&#39;s all verbal but I am supposed to wait and get a ref.# after they review the sales contract so I cxn proceed with my purchase

the misunderstanding is due to the cut & paste b.s. that goes on here. My visa cust rep. is looking at this as a "here and now" situation and I am reporting it as a future transaction "my visa->paypal->seller". Thus, paypal will process my cc# and seller gets a confirmation that payment was made, yet, selller will not be able to whisk the funds to his other (offshore) account until I sign for goods received. If I dont sign, the funds ( at paypal?) will be yanked out, seller gets nothing.

I most certainly do have the quote, sales order number, invoice, list of parts (including shingles that were quoted on ebay), emails, headers w/ time & dates, etc. All what is missing is the steel roof in my driveway. Before I give it to ebay, I will give the seller a chance to make good on his promise to ship the goods.

my visa will do that and no, he doesnt understand "that" as I already discussed it with him repeatedly on the phone and email

- only the seller, Gary McElligott Operations Manager Code Camey and Associates, Inc.

479-229-1302/479-886-1590 can answer that with absolute certainty.

[Gini]

"Frugal Farmer"wrote [e-mail] wrote: .......................

=========== You know that it is a violation of eBay TOS to post personal identifying information of another user online?

...snipped seller&#39;s name, address, and phone number... =========

[Frugal Farmer]

no I didnt. sorry, have not used ebay much, never read their rules & regulations. will try to rescind & re-post w/o the compromising info. i dont see rescind in my usenet reader @ this moment. - will look for it.

anyways, further to your other posts, I dont have a problem going to alt.marketing.online.ebay w/ my queations; however, I have taken this (gini->trade4):

as a fact since you sounded so definitive & conclusive. Could you please provide the link. it doesnt matter how friendly atl.ebay are, they will fry my ass if I dont have my ducks in line. thanks.

[Gini]

=== I think I see your problem. You want me to read their rules and regulations for you? ===

....................

=== I provided a description of where it can be found via "Report this Item" in the auction listing. Go back through my posts, you&#39;ll find it. I am not going to eBay&#39;s Help files to dig for info that you or anyone else can dig through on their own. I&#39;m just not being paid enough here. ===

== You&#39;ve been given the answers to your questions repeatedly but you&#39;ve chosen to discard them demanding a "link" that is clearly your responsibility to find. You asked for advice and were given advice. If you wanted a link, you should have gone to eBay Help, not usenet, and certainly not alt.home.repair. == ==