==This seller is using this auction as a "sell-through" for the balance of the
normally needed to finish the project, while only paying eBay fees for the
of material offered via the auction (which is precisely what he told the OP
communications). This is apparent in the following statements
from the description:
"Additional colors and styles are available from us"
"Further contact is needed for accessories"
"This offer is for a limited amount of this particular product."
OK, thanks for pointing out what the real beef is. If you go back to
where the big disagreement started, it was with the post Big made,
saying using Western Union as a payment option is a violation of Ebay
policy. AFAIK, it's not, stated so, and then somehow I got called
I have to take exception to your statement that the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees.
All the OP said was on a previous transaction, he wanted some
accessories and the seller added them on to the final price. We don't
know what the accessories were or how they relate to the original
product. And how do you know how this was done? If it was a buy it
now, the seller could have added the accessories to the listing and
raised the purchase price. Even if it were not done through Ebay, what
is the limit to what other items you could offer someone that were
never listed? Suppose he listed shingles for sale and in the course
of discussion with the buyer, learned the buyer also wants felt and
roofing nails? In your understanding of Ebay rules is he then
required to list the nails and felt and sell them through Ebay?
Now, I do agree that in the case of the new listing, if the buyer
needs 15 boxes of the shingles shown and he contacts the seller and
the answer is to supply it without going through Ebay, then that is
indeed a violation. As for saying additional colors, styles, etc are
available, contact us, I've seen that in plenty of Ebay ads. I've
also seen sellers then put up a listing specific to what that
particular buyer wants. What do you think this seller should do to
make the listing right?
(Further comments inline below)
= If you go back to
=I have no dog in that fight.
=Huh? I said that?
=> All the OP said was on a previous transaction, he wanted some
=It is not my concern "what the accessories were."
= If it was a buy it
=I did not provide you with "my understanding." I provided you with the eBay
on fee avoidance and the auction specifics that violated that rule. This
isn't a gray area that you
appear to be trying to make it out to be.
=That is not fee avoidance. That is a "private auction."
=What do you think this seller should do to
=Not my concern. Is this your listing? For further information,
see eBay "Help" pages.
This seller is using this auction as a "sell-through" for the balance
normally needed to finish the project, while only paying eBay fees for
of material offered via the auction (which is precisely what he told
Well, I must have missed that. Which post was it where you provided
the Ebay rule? I'd like to see where it's defined that if I sell say
a camera and then find out through emails that the guy also wants a
tripod, which I happen to have, that I have to sell it to him through
Ebay. Link please?
And if you understand the Ebay rule so well, then why can't you answer
the question about what happens if I list shingles for sale and then
find out the guy who's buying the shingles also needs felt and
nails? Must I put them through Ebay?
and the auction specifics that violated that rule. This
Funny then that you didn't answer the question I posed about the
I never said it was fee avoidance. But those listings also have the
statements that they have other products, other colors available,
don't they? And they don't turn into fee avoidance. My point was
that some auctions are ultimately dealt with that way. How do you
know if Frugal goes to the seller and says I want 15 boxes of those
shingles the seller won't put up a listing for 15 boxes?
I asked in the hopes of seeing how you would go about selling those
shingles according to the rules. It seems everyone wants this guy
reported, booted, God knows what, but they can't answer what should be
simple questions themselves.
=That does not address the statement you made above.
I never said
"the seller ever told
the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees."
=>> I did not provide you with "my understanding." I provided you with the
=Indeed you did.
=Which post was it where you provided
=My advice that you research eBay "Help" if you are still confused stands.
=No need. You can research via eBay "Help" files. That is why they exist.
=All your questions *of merit* have been answered here. See eBay "Help" to
further confusion you may have pertaining to eBay rules. Hey. I know--ask on
alt.marketing.online.ebay. They are
real friendly folks over there who love helping newbies.
The statement above that I cited sure seems to say it. It ends with
"which is precisely what he told the OP during previous
communications." And also, let me point out that the OP never said
that in the previous transaction the seller didn't include materials
normally needed to finish the project. As I asked you before, and
you refuse to answer, what exactly determines the items I must kit
together according to you or better yet Ebay? I asked if I sell
shingles, and in the course of emails, it turns out the guy asks me if
I sell nails, must I then list them on Ebay? A simple YES or NO?
Yes, because you never did.
No link, just more BS.
Strange that that for someone who claims to know so much, you can't
answer that simple question about whether I have to list the nails
Maybe you should go there and get the answer to the nail question and
get back to us.
I'm not confused. I simply have not seen anything on Ebay's policies
that say if I'm selling an item that I've listed, and in the course of
that transaction the buyer asks if I have something else to sell, that
I MUST THEN DO THAT TRANSACTION BY LISTING IT ON EBAY.
The example I gave was if I'm selling 15 packs of shingles on Ebay and
the buyer then asks if I happen to have a case of nails he needs, do I
have to then list those nails on Ebay and not sell them direct? Your
answer is YES, all I want is a link to where on Ebay it says that. If
you know so much and are correct that should be easy, yet you prefer
to avoid it.
So, where is it stated on Ebay? Link please. That would easily
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:26:37 -0700, jJim McLaughlin
it's not that I am back after I said I am going over to
alt.marketing.online.ebay to pick their brains.
I am just about to place my question in alt.marketing.online.ebay
except the core of it is based on this:
being an undisputable fact. Therefore, I do too:
require a confirmation that the above is a fact so I dont make an ass
out of myself in front of another group just because somebody doesnt
have his/her facts lined up.
Is this it?:
It's only "it" if you can show me where in either of those links it
says that if a guy is selling 15 sq of shingles that are listed on
Ebay and in the course of the legitimate Ebay transaction you ask if
he also has a box of nails, that he has to sell you those by listing
them on Ebay. I don;t see anything that comes close. That was the
question that I posed to Gini and so far, aside from her insisting
that the answer is Yes, the nails must go through Ebay too, I don;t
see anything on Ebay that says it's true.
Note, I'm not saying that this guy proposing to sell you all the
shingles you need, while only listing one box on Ebay is not a
violation. I agree that with his giving you a sales agreement for
the transaction outside of Ebay it is a violation of Ebay rules.
But I'd like to see where it says that if you do a legitimate
transaction on Ebay, but learn the buyer wants some additional item,
like the nail example, that you then have to put the nails through
Or how about a used car dealer that lists and sells some cars on
Ebay. If he sells a car that he has listed on Ebay and the buyer
buys the car through Ebay, but also asks to have a stereo put in it as
a seperate additional item, does that have to go through Ebay?
Until someone shows me where it says otherwise, I say the answer is
====C'mon...aren't you going to ask the friendly folks at
They love these profoundly complicated questions of great national
I'll bring the popcorn.
my head off, shoot my dog or electrocute my cat over nothing. This
information and clarification I provide is for future reference to
those who may need it. Not to inflame another war.
My basic goal was to get steel shingles and not get duped by an
unscrupulous seller. I found what I was looking for on eBay. Many
recommended I use credit card as I will be protected. Many of you
also here recommended I don't deal with that eBay seller and go
elsewhere as he doesn't appear to be legit and the use of credit cards
wont protect me. Sound advice so why am I still here? For exactly
the same reason as everybody else - so I can create and negotiate my
own price instead of being told what the price is.
Anyway, I found out from my visa cust. service dept. this morning that
my basic, no-fee visa, as a rule of thumb, does NOT protect me for
THIS kind of purchase and I am on my own since terms of the purchase
are clearly spelled out - protected up to $200 and on the hook for the
rest. The charge wont (will NOT) be reversed unless I can prove fraud
That said, I was also told that if I provide documentation (sales
contract) prior to the transaction taking place, my visa will "clear
the path" for this purchase. I gather this purchase becomes C.O.D. if
the bank knows ahead of time who, what, when, how.. In that case YES,
I am protected and they WILL reverse the entire charge regardless
what paypal offers ($200).
In fact, my visa wants to know about all shady and out of the ordinary
transactions prior to the purchase taking place so banks have time to
freeze funds until the transaction completes successfully and
everybody makes good on the sales contract. In their own words, it is
a fraction of the effort and cost to prevent damage as opposed to
unwinding damage after the fact.
That was the first half of my puzzle. The second half of the puzzle
was how to make the seller compromise so it is a win-win situation
rather than him holding all the cards once he gets all my money.
As everybody knows by now, it is not possible to complete the entire
purchase on eBay as only one part (shingles) of the entire assembly
(ridges, nails, clips, gables, valleys, felt, shingles,...) are being
offered by the seller. There is a considerable risk in buying all
these parts separately due to availability or color mismatch as all is
manufactured in small lots. The seller (and buyer) knows that.
Therefore, the entire package of parts needs to be negotiated
off-line. And Gini found the key to the whole issue here:
Had I known then that instead of arguing with the seller about
(not)paying via WU off-line I could have forced him back to the eBay
table and pay with visa once I notified my bank this transaction is
going down, you all could have been focusing on other more important
things in alt.house.repair, like JoeSpareBedroom's meds.
Furthermore, I now realize this was the wrong place to ask an eBay
question. I had no idea this alt.marketing.online.ebay was in
Also, I can see alt.house.repair is not the right place to ask my next
question - what eBay rule I use to force the off-line deal through
eBay auction as for a fact I know somebody will shit on my head
because I am taking them away from JoeSpareBedroom's "dancing with the
losers" saga - an appropriate topic for a Bob Villa tv show.
So that's where I am going next but I tell you this, it was no fun
getting dumped on just for asking an innocent newbie question.
Nice work. the OP gets it now and is signing off. See you in
So you got two very different answers to your question in two days.
You reported yesterday that the answer was that VISA would not cover
the transaction through Paypal because the charge was legitimately
placed by Paypal, (the merchant who they have a contract with), and
then sent on to some other party who you actually have the problem
with. Today, they tell you they will, but only if you either
1 - Prove fraud occurred. But the question is, fraud by whom? They
could later very easily say that means that the fraud has to be by
their merchant, Paypal. And Paypal wasn;t the fraud.
2 - Do some special documented transaction through VISA.
You can see the problem here. You got two different answers to the
same question in 24 hours. And neither of them says what many people
here are claiming, which is that if you just use a credit card through
Paypal on their website, like everyone would, you don't have the
credit card protection that you would if you used it directly with a
merchant who takes VISA.
And if this winds up screwed, what happens when the next person at
VISA tells you something different? This isn't a simple issue and I
would not trust what anyone told me verbally as you have no proof
later. I'd want to see VISA's policy in writing that explicitly
deals with Paypal transactions.
The only thing I can tell you is I had this exact problem with a
Paypal transaction through Citibank VISA. I bought a set of alloy
wheels on Ebay that was clearly and seriously misrepresented as being
like new. I used the VISA on Paypal. The picture of the item was of
different wheels, probably brand new ones, and definitely not the ones
being sold which were old, dirty, serious curb rash, dings, etc.
Instead of like new, they were worse than the ones I had on the
car. The answer I got from Citibank VISA was clear. They
considered Paypal the legitimate charger, the transaction was vailid
and they would not get involved.
Ultimately, after a long dispute process with Paypal and Ebay, I did
get most of my money back. I still did not get back shipping, had to
pay for return shipping and all told, I probably lost $40 on a $175
The other thing you will learn if you go through this process is
unlike VISA, which has someone to answer the phone, with Paypal you're
talking to a server. I never spoke with anyone during the entire
dispute process You shuffled off to an electronic robot type system
that tries to resolve everything with minimal human intervention.
The safest solution to your problem is an escrow service. Check it
out on Ebay. I think escrow.com is their recommended escrow
service. The only problems are most sellers won't go through the
hassle and of course someone has to pay the fee.
follow a special documentation procedure for the
I'd still like to see on Ebay where it specifies that. Sears, for
example, sells items like air compressors on Ebay. If I want a hose
with it, is it a violation of Ebay policy for them to sell it to me
via their online or walk-in store?
I can understand if you were deliberatly splitting up a major part of
the sale, but I can't believe Ebay demands that if a guy asks me for
nails, which were never listed, in addition to the shingles, that I
have to then list that on Ebay. Zillions of companies are selling all
kind of stuff like this and have online stores. How the hell is
anybody supposed to keep track of which channel someone is buying
You just contact the seller, tell him exactly what you want, and ask
him to put it up on Ebay as a fixed price listing which you can then
buy. If he won't, then I'd say that's the end of it. Do you want
to do business with someone that you have to force to even start doing
an ethical transaction? The fact that he only has 10 feedbacks and I
think most of them were as buyer would be my main concern. I'd never
do business for a major purchase with someone with so little
feedback. I might buy a $10 widget, but not $3500 worth of material,
unless you do the escrow or can pick it up and pay then. And any
legitimate business seller should understand that.
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 09:01:53 -0700, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
- yes, that' right. And they said the same today. And they're
getting mighty sick of me calling in asking the same question. I give
them my card# and they pull up a history of my calls and then repeat
what was said the last time.
My basic, no-fee visa doesnt have the protection of perhaps
gold/platinum or whatever cards. Especially in a case when paypal
clearly said - insured up to $200 - buyer beware.
And I didnt purchase their (visa) "purchase protection insurance".
Therefore, if I "just pay" for something, dispute it a few weeks
later, I will not get the same attention as somebody else with
additional perks on his card.
fraud as in not shipping or not intending to ship or shipping empty
box, etc. No protection for damaged, missing or some other debate
able reason. Their main point is that it is a lot of hassle for my
bank to hold somebody responsible when the money is already gone. The
bank wont eat it and paypal wont eat it since the seller already spent
yes, visa specifically wants to review the sales contract and
description of goods beforehand to process a potential claim. It
becomes a secure sale, in effect C.O.D. Eventhough, the seller
(probably) gets a confirmation he is getting money, he cannot use the
money until he delivers. Once I sign for goods, the funds are
again, dont shoot me just because this is how my bank/visa does it. It
might be different for everybody else.
- not really. just two different options how to conduct an online
ebay/paypal are probably exceptions to the general rule due to their
size and convoluted way of processing payments. they have the weight
behind them to negotiate their own terms and do things their way.
my visa logs history and contents of phone calls
I asked too and visa didnt provide anything. Just told me to deal
directly with cust. service (visa) before engaging in shady
transactions that dont look straight forward.
- each bank has its own way of resolving disputes; especially if they
also sell insurance, charge purchase protection fees, etc. Also the
paypal rules are convoluted. see here:
about 3/4 down, paragraph VII - 5 (credit cards)
in a way, that's what my visa does except the seller doesnt know that
if he fails to live up to his end of the contract (deliver what was
promised), he wont see the dough.
good idea, i didnt know I had that option
he already provided me with a quote, invoice, terms, conditions, etc.
(i am looking at it right now) so at this point I want him to deliver
what he promised to deliver or admit he is a crook. At this point I
am so irate for wasting so much time on this and being flamed so many
times for asking what I thought were legit questions that this time I
need to shit on somebody too. And I am ready to send the seller's
invoices and sales contract to ebay if I find out exactly who wants
that's because he conducts business off-line and uses eBay to
advertise his goods. Those Tamko shingles have been on his eBay since
at least March/07.
I really struggle to understand why he conducts his business "cash
only". Perhaps he doesnt have any inventory/warehouse and doesnt want
to take responsibility if something goes wrong.
No, Paypal is different because the credit card company has a
contractual relationship with Paypal, not the person you had Paypal
wire it to after they received the funds on a legitimate processing
request from you. It's almost like taking a cash advance on your CC
at an ATM, then taking the cash, buying a fake watch, getting ripped
off, and expecting the CC bank to cover it. If this guy took CC
directly, then VISA would have a contractual relationship with him,
would have checked his credit worthiness, etc. With the money going
through Paypal, the CC bank has no way of knowing who the money is
sent to or for what.
Which is better than nothing, but you don't know exactly what is
recorded there in a few brief notes or how it will be interpreted if
you come calling for $3500 and they aren't so eager to pay.
Maybe I'm missing something, but since he wants money in his bank
BEFORE he ships, how will he not know that payment hasn't been
received until you agree you are satisfied either way?
You can report him there. If you have a quote for those shingles he
sent to you to sell them to you outside of Ebay, it is a clear
violation. I'd be very interested in hearing what, if any, response
you get, other than a form email back.
Maybe because his credit and banking history is so bad that he the
credit card companies won't do business with him.
On Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:40:36 -0700, email@example.com wrote:
I follow your argument. I dont have answers for you. I would like to
know myself how it works except my visa cust.serv. just about had it
with me calling in asking the same question over and over again.
it's all verbal but I am supposed to wait and get a ref.# after they
review the sales contract so I cxn proceed with my purchase
the misunderstanding is due to the cut & paste b.s. that goes on
My visa cust rep. is looking at this as a "here and now" situation and
I am reporting it as a future transaction "my visa->paypal->seller".
Thus, paypal will process my cc# and seller gets a confirmation that
payment was made, yet, selller will not be able to whisk the funds to
his other (offshore) account until I sign for goods received. If I
dont sign, the funds ( at paypal?) will be yanked out, seller gets
I most certainly do have the quote, sales order number, invoice, list
of parts (including shingles that were quoted on ebay), emails,
headers w/ time & dates, etc. All what is missing is the steel roof
in my driveway.
Before I give it to ebay, I will give the seller a chance to make
good on his promise to ship the goods.
my visa will do that and no, he doesnt understand "that" as I already
discussed it with him repeatedly on the phone and email
- only the seller,
Code Camey and Associates, Inc.
can answer that with absolute certainty.
==========You know that it is a violation of eBay TOS to post personal identifying
information of another user online?
...snipped seller's name, address, and phone number...
========> can answer that with absolute certainty.
& regulations. will try to rescind & re-post w/o the compromising
info. i dont see rescind in my usenet reader @ this moment. - will
look for it.
anyways, further to your other posts, I dont have a problem going to
alt.marketing.online.ebay w/ my queations; however, I have taken this
=> I answered YES. You must be reading every other line.
as a fact since you sounded so definitive & conclusive. Could you
please provide the link. it doesnt matter how friendly atl.ebay are,
they will fry my ass if I dont have my ducks in line. thanks.
==I think I see your problem. You want me to read their rules and regulations
==I provided a description of where it can be found via "Report this Item" in
auction listing. Go back through my posts, you'll find it. I am not going to
Help files to dig for info that you or anyone else can dig through on their
just not being paid enough here.
=You've been given the answers to your questions repeatedly but you've chosen
to discard them demanding a "link" that is clearly your responsibility to
find. You asked
for advice and were given advice. If you wanted a link, you should have gone
to eBay Help, not
usenet, and certainly not alt.home.repair.
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