Yes. that's right. And who's the merchant in this case? Paypal, because they are the merchant registered with the credit card companies and are in the business of accepting the money via credit card and then forwarding the money on to someone, just as instructed by the card holder. And that is where it ends. The transaction where MC/VISA paid Paypal was legitimate and authorized. Paypal then sent the money where it was supposed to go. End of story. The credit card company is not going to reverse the charge or get involved in the dispute. You think if you use a credit card through Paypal to send $3000 to some Joe Schmoe unknown party, that Citibank is going to make good because the guy took your money and never sent anything? If they did that, the doors to fraud would be wide open, because just about anyone can open up a Paypal account.
I'd like to see where it says in the Ebay rules that what the seller is doing is a violation. He said the buyer wanted either Western Union or bank draft for immediate shipment. If a regular check or similar is used, the seller will ship after it clears. There is nothing in any of that which violates Ebay rules and it sounds perfectly reasonable.
Sorry guys, but it is you guys who think the credit card company is going to cover him that are wrong. The credit card companies will cover fraud if it's conducted by a fraudulent transaction, the goods are never sent, etc. If the SELLER took his credit card as payment and never shipped, they would reverse it, investigate, and ultimately he'd get his money back.
But that is not the case here. Who's the "merchant" that has the contractual agreement with the credit card company? PAYPAL Paypal was asked to charge his credit card and then send the money to whoever the card holder asked it be sent to. That is exactly what they did. The credit card transaction with Paypal was legitimate and that is where the coverage by the credit card companies end. They will not cover it. End of story.
Now Paypal and Ebay will certainly investigate if the guy never ships, and finally close his accounts, but that isn't going to get your $3000 back.
Think about what you're proposing. If the credit card companies were to refund money for every credit card transaction where Paypal or Western Union sends money to some unknown Joe Scmoe in Pakistan, they would open the doors to fraud.
Every forum has trolls giving useless advice and irrelevant answers yet belittle others to boost their own miserable self-esteem and worth. This group is no exception.
This is a simple Q & A, what is so difficult about it?
Pay attention!
Q: "I wonder if it is possible to complete this transaction with minimal risk in case this seller is unscrupulous."
A: i) seller issues an itemized invoice (product description, qty, part #,...) ii) purchaser notifies CC issuer of impending transaction, forwards invoice to CC cust. serv. & gets authoriz'n iii) CC iss'r notifies PayPal of transaction in progress iv) payPal confirms trans'n, notifies seller, flags the trans'n & holds funds v) seller ships vi) product lands vii) if (product = invoice) then purchaser accepts paypal remits funds in full to seller elseif (product not= invoice) then purchaser not accept product shipped back @ seller's expense CC charge reversed elsif (product = invoice) & (purchaser = buyer's remorse) product shipped back @ purchaser's expense CC charge reversed minus shipping endif
Those who said the answer is not to pay upfront or walk away get partial marks for being partially correct. All others get an 'F' for not answering the question or being just plain wrong. Good bye.
Did you even bother to look at those links before you posted them? Both those links cover avoiding paying Ebay fees. What does any of that have to do with what is being discussed here which is the claim that a seller requesting cash payment, wire transfer, WU, cashier's check, etc before shipping or else waiting for their check to clear is violating Ebay rules and should be reported. Reported? For what?
You don't have a clue about Paypal. Paypal will cover "x" amount, _IF_ the purchase was made through a legitimate purchase through eBay. eBay owns Paypal.
To open a Paypal account, you need a credit card and/or bank account. You can't have credit through Paypal. It appears by your answer, you think Paypal is it's own bank/credit union or something.
The only end of story in your writing is, you don't have a clue about it.
The doors to fraud are wide open, did you just wake up Rumplestiltskin?
Now this is pretty ass backwards to begin with. Since when does a purchaser call up the credit card company and forward an invoice to them? They'd laugh at you. And why would the credit card company want to look at an invoice from a company THAT DOES NOT TAKE CREDIT CARDS?
No, Paypal just submits your credit card info to the credit card company when you tell them to charge X dollars on your credit card and send it to snipped-for-privacy@someISP.com. It's approved/disapproved in a few secs.
You get an even bigger F. Paypal is pretty much an electronic service, it's not like they have hundreds of people around to hand hold invoices and get mixed up in all this crap. They do electronic transactions through a server. What you are proposing, is essentially an escrow service, which AFAIK, Paypal does not provide. If they do, I'd like to see a reference.
Now there are escrow services the guy could use in conjuction with an Ebay purchase. But that involves figuring out how you do that, which service is not a fraud, and also assumes the seller will agree to it. Most won't because it complicates the process and they don;'t get paid quickly.
== I dunno. Ebay is pretty slow to act on this kind of thing. They say they like to see "a pattern" before acting. I wonder how many buyers get screwed while eBay is waiting for the pattern to show up.
=== This seller is using this auction as a "sell-through" for the balance of the materials normally needed to finish the project, while only paying eBay fees for the "limited amount" of material offered via the auction (which is precisely what he told the OP during previous communications). This is apparent in the following statements from the description:
"Additional colors and styles are available from us" "Further contact is needed for accessories" "This offer is for a limited amount of this particular product."
It was never stated that the seller REQUIRED payment via Western Union. It was only said that for IMMEDIATE SHIPMENT the seller wanted payment via Western Union or Bank Draft. It was also stated he would take any other form of payment where the money winds up cleared in his bank account BEFORE he shipped. So, he'd clearly take a check and wait for it to clear
So, again, please show me where any of that, including offering Western Union as a payment option is a violation of Ebay policy by the seller. I'm sure you can find something where Ebay recommends using Paypal instead of Western Union. Gee, you think maybe that's because they own Paypal? But please show me where they say a seller can't accept Western Union as a payment option.
If you can't then be decent enough to retract your slam.
OK, thanks for pointing out what the real beef is. If you go back to where the big disagreement started, it was with the post Big made, saying using Western Union as a payment option is a violation of Ebay policy. AFAIK, it's not, stated so, and then somehow I got called names.
I have to take exception to your statement that the seller ever told the buyer that he is doing anything to deliberately avoid Ebay fees. All the OP said was on a previous transaction, he wanted some accessories and the seller added them on to the final price. We don't know what the accessories were or how they relate to the original product. And how do you know how this was done? If it was a buy it now, the seller could have added the accessories to the listing and raised the purchase price. Even if it were not done through Ebay, what is the limit to what other items you could offer someone that were never listed? Suppose he listed shingles for sale and in the course of discussion with the buyer, learned the buyer also wants felt and roofing nails? In your understanding of Ebay rules is he then required to list the nails and felt and sell them through Ebay?
Now, I do agree that in the case of the new listing, if the buyer needs 15 boxes of the shingles shown and he contacts the seller and the answer is to supply it without going through Ebay, then that is indeed a violation. As for saying additional colors, styles, etc are available, contact us, I've seen that in plenty of Ebay ads. I've also seen sellers then put up a listing specific to what that particular buyer wants. What do you think this seller should do to make the listing right?
== You're welcome. (Further comments inline below) == If you go back to
== I have no dog in that fight. ==
Huh? I said that? ==
== It is not my concern "what the accessories were." == If it was a buy it
== I did not provide you with "my understanding." I provided you with the eBay rule on fee avoidance and the auction specifics that violated that rule. This isn't a gray area that you appear to be trying to make it out to be. ==
== That is not fee avoidance. That is a "private auction." == What do you think this seller should do to
== Not my concern. Is this your listing? For further information, see eBay "Help" pages. == ==
You;re the one who's clueless and giving out bad advice. I know perfectly well that Ebay owns Paypal, so what? Paypal covers buyers for either $200 or a max of $2000 on some, but not all items bought on Ebay. To get the $2000 protection:
formatting link
seller's eBay feedback rating is at least 50; At least 98% of the seller's eBay feedback is positive; The seller has a Verified Premier or Verified Business Account in good standing; The listing was on an eligible eBay site (eBay.com and certain other eBay sites self identified as such) PayPal is listed as an acceptable payment method; and The seller is a PayPal User from one of the following countries:
Doh! In the case of frugal farmer, the seller only has a feedback rating of 10, so he can stop at the first requirement. So, Frugal is right, he's only covered to a whopping $200. And then go read all the hoops and jumps and the process you have to go to in order to try to collect. And how it only covers tangible items, not things like tickets or licenses for digital subscription content, etc. It ain;t like calling Citibank about your VISA dispute with a merchant.
Funny how the guy asking for help knows more than you. :)
And also if you want to look through the whole thread, the only one that mentioned the possibility of using an escrow service, whcih gives him total protection, was me. Or he could just listen to you and hand over the money via Paypal, thinking he's covered for his $3500.
It appears by your answer that you can't read. My point clearly was that those telling Frugal to pay with a credit card through Paypal and they are protected by the credit card company are wrong. You do understand that Paypal accepts credit cards, don't you and then sends that money to who ever you tell them to? Well, I'll make it clear for you one more time. Let's say you have a VISA with Citibank. You send $3500 to Mr X via Paypal and use the credit card. The stuff never shows up. Citibank will tell you the charge was legitimately submitted by Paypal and it was paid. They will not get involved with your nasty little dispute with Mr X, because HE's NOT THEIR MERCHANT, HE DIDN"T TAKE THE CREDIT CARD. End of story.
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