Solar Roof

infrastructure

That's only because the penetration of rooftop solar is so small. Consider the limiting case where YOU are the only one not using rooftop solar. You'd be paying the entire cost of the grid which is still capable of providing peak needs at night and on cloudy days for all those other people selling their peak power back to the utility.

My electrical bill was $30 for electricity and another $26 for fixed costs. Would be interesting to know how that ratio would change if everybody but me had rooftop solar without storage.

I do not read all stories about Solar. However it is necessary to know=20 Did you purchase the whole solar system or do you leasing it. How many kilowatt is your system. How much you are paying per kilowatt Solar Co.=20 How much you are paying Electrical Co. for paper work monthly?

Rooftop solar without local storage is UNSUSTAINABLE. Local storage is impractical with current technology for anybody with grid access.

How much carbon is released while manufacturing/installing/maintaining a rooftop solar system? What does all that additional installation do to your property taxes, or roof maintenance costs, or home insurance costs? People just ignore the fact that local storage has its own demons when it comes to production and recycling.

You can make a case for solar and wind farms, but as a total supply of energy, it's impractical without a breakthrough in storage. Even with subsidies, the masses cannot afford rooftop solar. Rooftop solar will never be a huge percentage of supply in places where a grid exists.

Nuclear is the only technology on the horizon capable of meeting our energy needs with low carbon footprint. We spend money on giving away rooftop solar systems. Perhaps that would be better spent on making nuclear safer. Invest in a path that could actually provide a solution.

Tree huggers need to "take a timeout." Yes, nuclear is gonna kill some people. But, so do automobiles. It's the cost of progress. In perspective, maybe we should outlaw automobiles.

But what

I see you're intentionally confusing the retrofit options in place of the one you specifically asked me about.

That's because the battery bank isn't pushing 1000+ DC volts to it, where as the PV array will, unless it's limited, via the controller option.

Yes. You cannot just tie the PV array into the battery bank circuit, the incoming voltage is MUCH MUCH to high. It must be reduced, before entering the Inverter if it's being done this way. Which is what the SMA unit is doing, essentially. Although, on a smaller scale.

I didn't say it could. I specifically said, "that can provide power without the grid". I even quoted exactly what was written about it. You'll notice, it's supplying power from the PV Array. Not the battery bank.

For off-grid residences, the Conext XW+ or Conext SW becomes the primary power source and forms the grid, converting solar power and battery reserves to AC power for loads. Powerful load-starting capabilities of the Conext XW+ and Conext SW, start and run typical loads, such as pumps with ease, enabling key water and sewage systems. The Conext XW+ or SW is also easily combined with a diesel generator to shorten generator run-time, reduce diesel fuel costs and extend autonomy of the solar installation. Using the Conext MPPT Solar Charge Controllers, the PV system is DC coupled to the battery bank, providing an efficient and economical method of storing PV power for use overnight. AC Coupling the PV system with the inverter charger has advantages when the solar PV array must be sited far away from the battery bank. Conext solutions include

Yep.

See above. With the controller (an additional expense) you can provide power to the inverter via the PV array without using batteries. It *can* couple a battery bank to it. What the controller is actually doing is limiting the incoming voltage coming off the PV array so it doesn't blow the inverter to pieces.

I'm starting to see why many? others have declared you a troll and binned you. I'm not quite ready to do that, myself.

Not quite. Which doesn't matter anymore, I was informed yesterday that he finally purchased and has since installed a battery bank. I do not have the specifications of the bank, But, I have asked and should be hearing back shortly concerning it. I didn't attend the install for that job, I was assigned someplace else. Apologies for misleading you about not having battery bank; as, I didn't think he had one, yet.

Did you ignore the lines following "It's not a problem" on purpose, or? Just how do you suppose it's able to power his house on the battery bank, without backfeeding the grid? Some kind of magic?

Do you understand how many volts the PV array can still provide on a cloudy day? And, you can make the array larger, and install devices which BOOST the available voltage present on them, along the way to the inverter(s), if you so desire.

You asked about the cost. I answered.

No. He has more money than he knows what to do with, actually.

I'd have no way of knowing. I don't install the systems all over the country. I could only give you stats for this area, and, we're not the only ones doing the installs here, so even those stats wouldn't account for all systems with or without them.

I'd have no reliable way of looking up said stats. I don't think you could, either.

Not entirely correct, and, slightly dishonest of you to claim such. You either skimmed the part about the controllers, or, you didn't, but aren't wanting to discuss that aspect. Which is it?

I never said it was a cheap option to go solar for a realistic expectation of power. I've said several times, it'll be YEARS before you see any possible return on your investment, tax credits or not.

No, it's not inline with what you've been telling me. You've made your assumptions based on what the power companies in your locale are doing. Which doesn't apply across the entire United States.

Show me the stats to support this. Not what you think, not what your power company provides, but, some real stats, that federally claim power company will pay such and such per kilowatt returned to the grid.

Correct. So your federally mandated claims applies here, how?

How's that? It states that Tennessee isn't under any mandate to pay such and such amount to the owner for his power. You claimed otherwise. Wheres your proof? I shared mine. Are you trying to move the goalposts again, or, otherwise change the topic of discussion?

He's not taking advantage of them, and TN isn't playing ball with your previous claim that the power company has to pay him a specific amount for his power, which according to you, would have been more than they can charge/otherwise source it elsewhere. Ie: you claimed they were taking a loss on his array, and, you as well as others had to make up the difference. But, you're wrong. You don't have a dog in the race, infact. You're paying NOTHING for what he's doing, as I said, originally.

Well, in theory, he will, given enough time has passed and he lives long enough. But, that wasn't his intention to begin with. I don't think he could sell his monster size RV at a profit, either. it started losing value the moment he drove it off the lot. but, it's his, outright, as his the house, as is the solar array. Unless of course, he doesn't pay his property taxes, then, well, you should know how that goes. Or, maybe your state is different in that respect. But, here, if you don't pay your taxes and enough time goes by (I think it's two years now), they will come and auction your house for the back taxes owed on it. YOUR house isn't really yours here.

I didn't claim that solar worked for everyone. I said it's a useful source of energy if you have the means to harness it. He does, so...

He used* grid power at night time, when the pv array can't generate enough power. During the day, the PV array makes enough juice to make up for the previous 'losses' it sustained. So, he gets a tiny check back, instead of a bill. He's paying for the infrastructure same as his neighbor, a good ways down the road. he's just not having to pay as much because he's not using as much. What he is using is being placed back onto the grid during the daytime, more than offsetting his costs as far as the power bill is concerned. He isn't getting a special rate, he's just not using as much from the grid as his neighbor.

• I've been informed as of yesterday that a battery bank has finally been installed, so, he'll ONLY be using the grid in the event the banks go down and the PV array isn't able to provide power.

They aren't paying any more than he is. He's using alternate power, so...He's able to keep costs down in that regard. His neighbors have the same choice, pending they could afford it. That's on them, not him, if they cannot.

I wasn't discussing the 'big picture'. You and Mike? were.

Some utilities are being forced, but, not here. Otherwise, I agree. If you have a problem with the rate your power company is being 'forced' to pay another for generated power, you should take that up with those responsible for creating and passing those laws. I'm sure your power company would appreciate it. And, others in your state as well.

That's because the individuals who are promoting solar would very much like for TN power to be forced to pay an inflated rate for it. It's good for THEIR bottom line. TN hasn't drank the koolaid (so far), so it hasn't happened, here. Yet.

See above. They have a vested interest in it. A financial interest in it. Solar rigs are expensive, so, anything they can do to give you the impression it's not as expensive as it really is works to their favor.

So why did you even bring that up? I'm not responsible for a power companies lack of investing in gear able to store excess power when it's available, to be used later. That's lack of foresight on them.

Always a condition for you to try and wiggle out of what you wrote, eh? And you label me a troll...

Did I say that? No, I didn't. I said, he isn't taking advantage of the credits.

Correct.

You're writing about a guy who buys a new RV, drives it out of state, once or twice, gets another one, does the same thing. Leaving the prior ones to rott. His backyard had four of them at last count. He just doesn't care. Like I said, more money than he has economic sense.

Actually, no, that's not what 'everyone' here said. Battery banks didn't even come up until I mentioned them. You both claimed that without grid power, it was dead in the water. And, that's not true.

You and mike Acknowledged no such thing. Unless I missed a post, you both claimed that without the grid, no power would be available. I brought up the battery bank. Not either of you. Further, you both seem to be of the mistaken impression it won't run without the grid being 'hot' for safety, but, that's obviously NOT true either. It will. And, it won't backfeed onto the grid if the grid is down, either. It has an interlock to prevent that, same as a generator.

Here in San Diego county we have a massive number of home PV systems installed. Here at our home, we built and installed our own 10KW ground mounted, grid connected system. As we have significant technical capabilities between my Sons and I, my total costs were about $19,000.

The ROI on the system is excellent as we were averaging $500 - $600 per month with a multi-tiered electricity billing system. In addition to the PV panels, we installed an auxiliary switch gear and a virtually brand new USMC 15kw diesel generator as a back up in case of grid failures (under 100 hours on the engine). I purchased the generator at auction for about $4500 (not included in the $19k mentioned above) with a Caterpillar engine.

The system is not an uninterruptible power supply as I have no batteries or other power storage devices, but we almost never have power failures of any duration, maybe once every 5 years, if that. I did give a lot of consideration to using a compressed or elevated water tank as power storage options, but the ROI just didn't compute.

I'm all for tough safety regulations. I'm all for plans to deal with waste products. Pick a technology. Select locations. Pick a development plan. Order some construction equipment. Shoot protesters on sight and convert them to biofuel to run the bulldozers. They approve of biofuel don't they?

Get on with it!!!

That's a problem with society. It takes a village to approve something. It only takes a few dissenters to prevent it. The result is that nothing gets done. The solution? Biofuel!!

Instead of "just say no" and setting police cars on fire, what if protesters carried signs presenting well-thought-out complete solutions to problems that included plans to fund them?

I'm not sure I concur that humans are the major driver of climate change.

If you want to give me a rooftop solar system, I'll take that too. Just don't expect it to affect anything but my short term cash flow and the destruction of the current electricity distribution model.

That's not the only problem. Poor designs, maintenance, etc also contribute.

Well, no, not all of us.

In the states, the electrical 'grid' is way behind the times, and hasn't been properly maintained in decades.

I don't recall ever saying that.

I don't recall saying that either. I might have suggested that, without an active grid connection, you have nowhere to sell your excess daytime power, making a bad economic situation worse.

for safety, but, that's obviously NOT true either. It

I maintain that rooftop solar doesn't make economic sense for anybody with access to the grid. And it won't ever be able to make a dent in global warming without a major breakthrough in storage. Subsidizing rooftop solar just makes me pay part of your expenses. We'd be much better off subsidizing the creation of biofuel from protesters and getting on with nuclear.

This is the kind of data you need

That's AVERAGE insolation without allowance for trees, dirty panels, aging components, system inefficiencies, etc. I expect that, with expensive panels and very efficient converters, you might get 10% of that into useful AC power.

Depending on how far below average before the power cuts off you're willing to go, you may want several days of storage capacity and twice the number of solar panels. If you're using batteries for storage, double the number so you don't overstress them.

In summer, many of us would have excess capacity out the... You happen to be in a sweet spot for solar.

If you are not willing to do that, you need the grid. And you need me to pay for your abuse of the grid.

I think you're not the average installation. You're in a great area for insolation. You (ab)use the grid for storage. You pay more than 10X the cost of electricity than I do. If you even considered an elevated water storage system, you probably don't live in a high-density area.

If your neighbor asked you for a quotation to install a turnkey system like yours based on retail costs for parts and labor and business profit, not auction purchases, what would that $23.5K system cost him?

I've lived in the same house since '72. I hear that's not the norm. How much of your investment can you get back when you sell your house? How much does solar complicate the sale?

There was a discussion a while back where people discussed storage options. One fellow was generating Brown's gas from his excess solar and storing it in huge barrels. He used two concentric barrels with water so that the top barrel floated up as gas was introduced. He burned the gas for light and heat at night. Storing Hydrogen and Oxygen in the correct proportion to create the biggest bang didn't seem prudent to me, but he was a happy camper.

I feed a lot of power back into the grid and I am compensated a negligible amount for doing so. My night time power use is fairly low so my bill is quite low.

I have multiple acres within 5 miles of the Pacific ocean in northern San Diego county. I also considered building a compressed air energy storage system, but again, the ROI was not there when I considered the cost of owning and operating the generator.

My upbringing taught me to do for myself whenever possible, I certainly almost never pay retail for anything. I consider the construction of a PV system to be relatively simple, one must simply pay attention to detail and be meticulous in planning and execution.

There is no magic to obtaining equipment at reduced costs, one must simply be persistent.

If this property were to be sold (unlikely), the solar would not complicate the sale at all as I own it outright. In fact, this system significantly increases the value of the home.

Brown's gas? No thank you.

My point is that you represent a tiny fraction the population.

Joe truckdriver and Sally pianoteacher probably would have to have it installed by someone else at significantly increased cost and require significant subsidization to make it cost effective.

Damn! Word wall deleted.

Hmm. It's possible I have you confused for another. I'll check the thread later for MIDs to confirm.

Global warming? Er, wait.. you actually think we're responsible for it? You don't suppose this planet happens to go thru cycles, and, this time, we're getting to observe it with the ability to record the events?

I haven't subsidized anything. And, I don't like others paying for anything of mine. Same with the health care issue that's presently on going. I don't think I should be forced to pay for someone elses problems. Nor punished for refusing to do so via the IRS.

Nuclear has it's own share of problems. For starters, what do you plan to do with the spent fuel?

devices

I don't need it. Someone else, might though.

Indeed.

Well, considering that I don't personally run Solar or other forms of alternative power full time, I'd say your right.

I'm not abusing the grid, and, I don't need you to pay for me.

Many people in today's society have fallen into the trap of "calling the guy", I am from the era when people, with the help of neighbors would raise their own barns, fix their own cars, build their own houses, dig their own wells and install their own windmill water pumps.

Just because there are people out there who install this stuff for profit doesn't mean people can't learn to do it themselves.

If you think you can't do something and must call a pro, undoubtedly you will be proven correct.

Occasionally, I ponder dystopian scenarios where our society is thrown back into a less technology centric era, due to a well directed coronal mass ejection (CME) or an enemy EMP attack on our nation. Scenarios where the most valuable skills include farming, metalworking, carpentry, plumbing, forestry, etc. and I look around at so many people who are considered to be highly skilled today and I realize most of those would be worthless to society because they never learned how to swing a hammer, turn a wrench, grow food or tend to livestock.

I'm not confusing anything at all. I used your link to the manufacturer of the hybrid converter. All 3 examples they show include a battery bank. I also provided a link to the install manual, cited where it clearly says it must be used with a battery bank.

The point is there must be a battery bank. If not, show us the application examples from the manufacturer. It would be a high demand product if they had what no one else has, a converter that will power the house with the grid down, without a battery bank. Where are the examples? Instead, the install manually clearly states the opposite, that it requires a battery bank.

Another red herring. The point is that the manufacturer says that a battery bank is REQUIRED.

It must be reduced,

Oh, please. Here you go, distorting, taking out of context, what the discussion was about. We were talking about solar arrays that supply power to the whole house and whether they can operate without the grid and without a battery bank. We were not talking about supplying just limited power to one outlet.

I even quoted exactly what was written about it.

Bingo! "Battery" is the operative word. Again, thanks for proving yourself wrong.

Only you are claiming that, not the company. And you continue to ignore the fact that if a solar system could provide power to the house during a grid outage without batteries, it would be one hell of a selling point. So, show us some websites of solar install companies hawking that. Crickets....

It *can* couple a battery bank to it. What the controller

I've already seen why you are a troll, starting with the crowd you dragged in here.

It does matter, because so far, you haven't shown us one solar install company offering a home solar system that supplies power to the whole house with the grid down, without a battery bank.

I was informed yesterday

Yes, I'm sure he reports back to you regularly.

According to the install instructions for that hybrid converter, which "I" supplied, it says a battery bank is mandatory. Are they lying?

I don't claim to be an expert of the exact details of the isolation problem. I can tell you that you can find link after link from solar companies, installers, green energy experts citing that as one of the problems and reason why the solar arrays being installed every day can't operate without the grid.

Personally, I would think that the cloud problem is bigger and insurmountable. What customer wants a brownout or power cuttoff with every passing cloud? THAT, plus the isolation issue is why those few inverters have an outlet that is only capable of supplying limited power. So, you connect your phone charger, or the charger for you sump pump battery, etc to it. But you don't try to run a house off it.

This is real simple. Do you agree that if you could run the array, supply power to the house, without the grid being up and without a battery bank, that it would be a powerful sales tool? Homeowner's would love it. So, most of the install companies would be offering it, most of the eqpt manufacturer;s would be hawking it. You would have power when your grid connected neighbor did not. So, just show us some of them. If you can't, case closed.

Do you understand that power and energy are not measured in volts? Good grief.

And, you can make the array larger, and install devices

Simple, just show us the websites of all the solar companies offering this for a residential customer, ie offgrid power, with no battery bank.

I agree, exactly right. And in some states, they have instituted a charge on the solar homes to start addressing exactly that. Which of course has all the hippies up in arms, because they want to hide the true cost.

How long these last, what the maintenance costs are, etc are still being learned. You have to wonder how many people install solar on a house with a 15 year old roof? Does the solar company tell them, gee if you have a 15+ or maybe even a 10 year old roof, you should factor in the cost of removing and replacing the panels when you need the roof replaced in 10 years? That honesty would be a sales limiter. It would add thousands to the cost of the new roof.

As I said before, what always amuses me is how the same environmentalists that tell us we're all going to die from a global warming disaster, are also against nuclear. They are even against windmills and large solar arrays when it actually comes to putting them in. As well as against the new transmission lines needed to make it work.

Which is an example of what we were telling Diesel, that solar needs artifically high prices. CA has those high prices for electricity because they won't let new nukes or other sources of cheaper energy be built.

Did you take advantage of tax credits? Rebates? What price do you get for excess electricity you put back into the system?

Here in NJ they have forced the utilities to buy X%, which increases each year, of their electric from clean sources. So, whatever electric you generate with a home solar system, you earn credits for it based on how much energy the array produces. It doesn't matter if you use it or it goes into the grid. Then, they have auctions where the power companies buy these credits and it counts toward their clean energy mandate.

In addition