most of this discussion is irrelevant to the issue
Yes, of course it is POSSIBLE to make a PV system work without the grid.
The point is that most commercial grid tie PV systems that consumers actually buy will NOT work without the grid.
That's why I said this is a travesty,
Because it is technically possible to do but the regulatory constraints for the most part prevent it.
m
IDK what "rules" you're referring to. As I and Mike have pointed out over and over the fundamental problem with using solar to power a house without the grid and without batteries is the SUN. What happens to all the appliances, motors, etc when a cloud passes? How many customers are willing to put up with brownouts or total drop of power when clouds pass by, on a cloudy day, no power at night when you typically need it the most, etc?
That issue is certainly the most common issues that solar companies frequently cite when asked why it won't work without the grid. But I've provided you cites that also include the insurmountable problem outlined above. I suspect most solar companies go with the disconnect story because it's simpler and doesn't make solar look bad, but instead uses the safety issue. And you already said that it could be disconnected via an interlock, just like we do with generators. I agree with that, I don't see the isolation thing being the big, insurmountable problem. It's the sun and clouds, the inability to constantly keep up a given power level, without a battery bank, as Mike and I have pointed out.
Doh! A few posts ago, in series it was generating 1200V, now it takes using both strings in series to get to 600V. Pretty soon we'll be down to 120V.
I guess I missed that and it's too much to say it here? Reading what Mike was saying, I suspect the answer was that the miracle mod box required it? That the same amount of power supplied at the normal much lower voltage from the solar array just isn't good enough? Tell us why.
They are also pretty much useless for storing energy to solve the passing cloud problem too. It would take one hell of a cap to supply typical power to a house for even a few seconds and why bother when battery banks are available? Show us a solar install that relies on caps for storage.
The problem here is that the system we're discussing keeps morphing. We were talking about solar, it's viability for the country. When you started on this case study, there was no mention of it having unusual gear, eg propane powered AC, very limited loads. Funny how the details keep getting added.
You said he had a grid tied solar with no battery bank. And so far, you say it works by virtue of this miracle "mod box" that emulates a battery. Why would anyone want to or need to emulate a battery when batteries are readily available? What is the source and specs for the storage in this "mod box"? Those are really simple questions.
It will probably start the car, but I sure wouldn't do it on a modern car with all the electronic gear in it.
Bingo. And I'd like to see an instruction sheet from one of those car starting battery packs that tell you it's OK, a good idea, to disconnect the car battery and just use it
ROFL. Uses "some"? Just tell us the size of those caps, that's an easy question.
Good grief. Now we've morphed to that it will have the problems from passing clouds that Mike and I said from the beginning, except that now it has a battery bank? That's exactly what I said in my first reply, to make this work, you need a battery bank.
Now, you said or implied that he had the house powered with solar without the grid and without a battery bank. Since then, you've finally told us that the "house" has propane AC, no loads except some LED lighting, some limited entertainment gear (probably a radio), and some tablets that typically aren't charging. Again, context is everything. We were talking about the viability of solar for the country, for people tied to the grid, ie the typical scenario. If you redefine a house to be something that can run off of just 200 watts, well it sure makes powering it with an array of panels but little sun possible. Possible, but not viable for a solution for the country. And again, who would screw around with a "mod box", developing one, building it, (BTW, is it UL listed?), instead of just following the install instructions that say the hybrid inverter needs a BATTERY BANK? Don't they have storage batteries in TN?
Why did this "mod box" cost you, but not the client? What solar install company puts in gear that one of it's employees hacks together for free, that emulates a battery, instead of just using a battery? No batteries in TN? What did the electrical inspector say when he saw your "mod box"?
Interesting isn't it how the story morphs. In the beginning there was no mention the the house had propane powered AC, (and I think some other propane powered non-traditional stuff too), now the house has almost no loads other than LED lighting, some entertainment gear (radio?), and tablets, PCs etc that run off charged batteries. Diesel's problems in other threads is that he either can't grasp context or he deliberately distorts it. We were talking about solar viability across the country, not one peculiar, extreme case.
I'd like to see the regulatory constraints that prevent it. If you have links to actual regs, please provide them. I agree that is what most solar companies say, that it's a safety issue, but I don't see why. For example, we have backup generators that a simple transfer switch isolates. Some solar companies also cite what Mike and I have been saying, that solar without the grid won't work because the sun doesn't shine consistently. A passing cloud, you'd have a brownout or total drop. How many customers would put up with that? And also I don't see how it's a safety reg issue when hybrid systems that include a battery bank work with the grid.
Wrong one, genius.
or this one:
That I did, and, I do. The controllers above are rated for that purpose.
You're right, I've wasted more than enough time on this subject with you.
No, it's not rocket science...
While I won't get into my specific circuit designs, suffice to say, you won't see 1200volts on the input terminals unless you take a reading outside the box, and, not internally. As internally, as I already told you, it has circuitry to prevent that issue.
The diode reference above is one of the important components to that 'safety' circuit, and I offered the link because you don't seem to understand what a diode can be used for. Well, now you you do.
I'm not sure what you mean by traditional, but, it is a viable solar option, if you can afford the costs and don't expect to recoup the losts by selling it to your power company. His goal wasn't to be off the grid, but, he could be if he so desired.
Ok.
we haven't morphed into anything...
Yep. His household appliances are gas, not electric. The house itself requires little power by comparison to a house that has electric appliances. So, with the modbox OR a real battery bank, he can run without the grid.
Yep. You and mike made assumptions that weren't correct. You both assumed everyone has the same setup as yourself or someone else you know, and, you both rolled with it.
Neither of you have actually installed the hardware to one of these, or, wired them for that matter. You both just assume you know more than you actually do on the subject and the conditions with which this setup is running.
Because I didn't sell it to them?!? It's mine. It was on loan to them.
More assumptions on your part. I don't work for a 'solar install company' - We do a hell of a lot more than solar installs, thanks. Residential/commercial and industrial wiring is our thing, primarily. As I told you, before, we were asked by a contractor to setup and install the solar equipment on a new house that was just built. So, the company said yes and some of us were assigned to do it. And, we did. Passed inspection, it's all good.
paraphrasing "Oh cool a regulated power supply. Neat" What else would he have said? I'm surprised it's taken all this time and you still didn't know what the modbox was. So, what aspect of electrical engineering do you specialize in?
You're responding to the wrong individual. I quoted the individuals post, and included MID for you with the apology for having accused you of writing the nonsense.
-- I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet. Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.
Hmm. You might wanna take a refresher course in english comprehension. Using both strings, it can easily exceed 600volts. Close to 1200, actually. Each string is capable of generating nearly 600 volts on it's own, and, I've never claimed differently.
I guess you should consider accessing usenet via a real client.
I see you intentionally picked the wrong controller. :)
I covered that on Wednesday: Message-ID:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
You have your choice of the control panel...
Or this version of the control panel that requires either a laptop or Android device.
They're sold seperately.
--------------------------------------------
Yep...
Indeed.
I find your intentional dishonesty rude, to say the least. And, I've tolerated it for as long as I'm going to.
I see now why so many people think you're a troll. Don't concern yourself with responding, You'd be wasting your time as I wouldn't see it. Having the benefit of a real usenet client does have it's perks. One of which is filtering. Both internally to the client as well as externally.
In other words, future posts from you will be dropped when my client goes to query the server for new posts. I don't even have to bother adding you to the filters on the client. Damn google groupie; I should have known better than to attempt interaction with you in the first place, when you initially claimed I was attacking you without justification for the claim.
Doesn't matter, it just reinforces what I said. Both those devices only accept inputs of 15V to 24V DC. Show us the eqpt that needs or accepts 600V from the solar panels.
Now they are not. Not a single Conext data sheet or install guide shows any of their eqpt being used with 600V. The max operating voltage is 150V.
Still waiting for some simple answers that the designer of a "mod box" should have been able to answer instantly.
1 - Give us the specs for the caps that you say are used as part of a design to "emulate" a battery bank. How large are they? 2 - Why would anyone design a "mod box" using caps instead of just using a battery bank? No batteries in TN? And why would any real, reputable solar company have one of it's employees hacking around, building special gear to install at a customer site instead of just using a very simple battery bank, which the Conext install manual clearly says must be used? And note that the battery bank could also provide power when there is no sun too.
Yes, we did and you did the morphing. The CONTEXT was the viability of solar, for the country, the economics of it. You brought up a case you say you were involved with, but didn't tell us at the outset that, if true, it's a pathological case. It takes days for it to morph into that the house allegedly now has propane running the AC, propane running the refrigerator, very limited loads, eg just LED lighting, tablets that are typically charged and running off batteries, etc. Clearly that isn't the homes that 99% of the US is living in. It sounds more like an RV. And to not disclose that at the outset when making your case is just fraudulent and dishonest.
No, our only mistake was giving you credit for being honest.
Which is why I asked you some simple questions, that so far you refuse to answer:
1 - Give us the specs for the caps that you say are used as part of your design to "emulate" a battery bank. How large are they? 2 - Why would anyone design a "mod box" using caps instead of just using a battery bank? No batteries in TN? And why would any real, reputable solar company have one of it's employees hacking around, building special gear to install at a customer site instead of just using a very simple battery bank, which the Conext install manual clearly says must be used? And note that the battery bank could also provide power when there is no sun too.BS detection.
You might want to take a refresher course in keeping your story straight. You just confirmed again exactly what I posted above.
Typical, now trying to start a diversion into what is totally irrelevant.
Still waiting for some simple answers that the designer of a "mod box" should have been able to answer instantly.
1 - Give us the specs for the caps that you say are used as part of a design to "emulate" a battery bank. How large are they? 2 - Why would anyone design a "mod box" using caps instead of just using a battery bank? No batteries in TN? And why would any real, reputable solar company have one of it's employees hacking around, building special gear to install at a customer site instead of just using a very simple battery bank, which the Conext install manual clearly says must be used? And note that the battery bank could also provide power when there is no sun too.I'm loosing faith in Usenet.
This is one of the few threads in AHR that is on topic.
AHR is being attacked by spam.
You both are knowledgeable guys so lets end the pissing context and try to help some newbies.
Else this newsgroup is going to die.
m
I don't see the relevance to your comment. What is or isn't going on in this on-topic thread has nothing to do with the new spam and I have been responding to other legitimate posts. Actually, if you're paying attention, the sudden increase started with the arrival of certain posters, who brought some "friends" with them. I agree that it's under attack, that it's probably finished, but IDK how to solve it. Someone suggested creating a moderated group.
I don't like the idea of moderation. Sadly, this group has a lot of crap now. I do find that putting a half dozen posters in the bozo bin gets rid of a lot of the nonsense. Just added another this morning. Ignoring them may help.
right, I'm saying this thread is NOT spam, and is on topic...
So lets keep it civil even if we have disagreements.
My point being, if we can't keep the on topic threads between knowledgeable folks civil, we have no chance against the spam.
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