OT What a jenny

[micky]

CNN had two people on to talk about the proposed rebate on college loans. Because I only listen, I don't know who they were. Sometimes one is from each party but this time, they might both have been Democrats.

Anyone, one of them was wanting a $50,000 rebate instead of 10 like Joe wants (and he said no to 50). And she said roughly, a real leader would do something about college tuition.

What a jackass. Doesn't she pay attention? In the campaign and again last night Joe said that junior college** should be free and state schools should be free to those with parents earning under 75K or 100K, something like that. What more does she want and Biden has been saying it for months. I'm going to try to find out who she was. It's too soon for there to be anything on the web.

**My father graduated high school in 1910. High school was free then. Now a high school diploma won't get you much, the country is much richer and still free education hasn't gone any farther than high school. In fact in 1957 Indiana University and most state schools charge in-state residents no tuition (although there were fees which were not nothing) and we've gone backwards on that.

As an aside, after HS my father went on to dental school for 4 years, commuting 50 miles each way every day by train, doing homework on the train, and working in his father's hardware store when he got home.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Paying off all loans will piss off everyone that paid their way through already. Everyone talks about forgiving the debt, no one asks why it cost so mush to go to school in the first place.

Not everyone benefits from college, some would to better in a trade or technical school rather than a degree is 4th century Greek sculpture

[angelica...]

I doubt that anybody getting a degree in 4th Century Greek sculpture could hack it at trade or technical school. Those disciplines require aptitude.

Now, don't get me started on how useless most young people are because they've spent their whole lives twiddling cell phone buttons or going to "maker academy" where nothing has to be kludged together.

"Here, go into those woods and build a reasonably weatherproof structure from the stuff that people have dumped there."

Cindy Hamilton

[Ralph Mowery]

Yes, today the young people do not seem to be able to do simple repair things around the house.

[rbowman]

I spent a winter building shortwave radios out of junk I found in the desert. Shotgun shells make great coil forms. Punch out the primer and they're ready to screw to your breadboard.

I did splurge on a RadioShack FET for a transmitter. I made a CW contact with a guy in Vegas. He said my frequency was drifting a little which was rather amazing for the pile of junk (literally) I was transmitting with.

[gfretwell]

That is only because they never had a chance to be taught. "Shop" disappeared from middle and high school in the 70s (probably because educators didn't know which end of a hammer you hold) and we are seeing the fallout now. Latinos are kicking our ass in the trades. If you don't speak a little Spanish you can't be a job super or a contractor these days. I was helped being an inspector because I took a Spanish class and I made the extra effort to expand that "do you have a telephone" stuff into the terms used in construction.

[Scott Lurndal]

Really? Must be a Florida thing. There's still shop class in high school here in California (called industrial arts).

It's pretty telling that you can't make a simple statement without resorting to insult.

[gfretwell]

Forbes disagrees with you.

"Shop classes are being eliminated from California schools due to the University of California/California State 'a-g' requirements. 'The intent of the 'a-g' subject requirements is to ensure that students can participate fully in the first-year program at the University in a wide variety of fields of study.'"

See above

[Jim Joyce]

The high schools that I'm familiar with in North and South Dakota still offer wood shop and home economics, the same as they have since the 1960's or even longer. My sister tells me that the ND HS where her kids went offered wood shop, auto shop, and home ec. When I lived in Kansas, the local HS offered wood shop, home ec, and computer networking. My son opted for the networking classes, which has served him well in his adult working life but I bet if I handed him a piece of wood and a hand saw he'd take a moment to figure it out.

Missing from all of those schools is some kind of metal working class. You get a little of that in an auto shop class, but not enough to make it somewhat equivalent to what they teach in wood shop. I still use what I learned in the mechanical drawing classes some 40 years ago. Before I build a woodworking project, my weekend hobby, I draw the front, side, and top views that I learned in mechanical drawing. I sometimes draw the 3D perspective angle, but it's not usually needed.

[micky]

We had woodshop and something about drafting in the 7th grade, I suppose for a whole year. I remember that the drafting tables were built at the prison in Pendleton Indiana.

My mother wanted a shoe rack that didn't have round dowels to hold the shoes. She used it for 38 years. I have it now.

We had metal shop and a little printing in the 8th grade. I was going to make a centerpunch or nailset but didn't finish. I still have that and it's useful. For printing, each kid was supposed to bring in a recipe, print it on 3x5 cards, and each of us got a set of them. Those I don't have and I don't think my mother saved them either.

I looked on the JHS website but it didn't say anything about specific classes.

I took autoshop as a senior, instead of 4th year Latin. Definitely a full-year course, so the others probably were too.

[trader_4]

Funny, do they teach shop in Mexico and Honduras schools? Do Latinos here go to different schools that do teach shop? The whole claims is wrong, at least here in NJ. The schools district here has vocational schools that teach trades like auto repair, HVAC, electrical, and yes, carpentry. That's way more than just shop from 50 years ago. If FL hasn't kept up, maybe that's because your state is too cheap, doesn't care and prefers low taxes.

If

That's true, but I suspect it has a lot more to do with Americans having become lazy and unwilling to do hard manual labor. And even those that will, most have half the productivity of immigrants. I have a friend who builds golf courses and that has been his experience. You don't need shop to know how to use a shovel.

[gfretwell]

They learn trades the old fashioned way, Their dad, uncle, brother teaches them. You are talking about a dedicated VoTec, not a regular school. We have VoTecs but they are not pushed by the school system.

Generally speaking based on our experience in construction, Mexicans were masons and concrete, Guatemalans were manual labor (shovel guys), Tile guys tended to be South American, Brazil or Colombia. Cubans were electricians. That started changing in the last 15 or 20 years and now you see a lot of Mexican electricians. They really go fast, turning a plodding along "union" job into an assembly line operation. I suppose it is just a matter of time before they take over plumbing and HVAC. Right now those guys still seem to be old rednecks. There isn't much acceptance of Latinos, either on the job or in the supply house. The supply house is a real choke point because they get real picky about who they will sell to and if you have to go to Home Depot or other retail places, it is hard to be competitive with your price. HVAC is the worst. Just go over to the HVAC newsgroup and ask a home owner question. They will flame you out.

[gfretwell]

The people who need it the most put the least value on K-12 education too. Just look at the dropout and academic achievement numbers in our inner cities.

[micky]

This was, btw, the richest school district in Indiana, the north sububurbs of Indianapolis. "Richest" is not saying a lot, in terms of richness, but there were very few people who were poor, and the rate of going to college was 60, 70, 80%.

Other than Catholic schools, I'm 90% sure there was only one private girls school and one private boys school in town, and they were small. Just about everyone except many Catholics went to public school. I don't know what percent of Catholics did... I'd see three or 4 with ashes on their forehead on Ash Wednesday. Maybe some took the whole day off?

The webpage now says they serve breakfast every day, but I don't think

60 years ago there would have been anyone eating breakfast at school. Even now, I don't know how that would work since the area is big, the school bus got us there only a few minutes before class (but enough that a shuttle bus could take high school students to the HS, 10 or 15 minutes away. Myabe that's when they eat breakfast)

I never noticed anyone drive their kid to school or pick him up, unless maybe someone had a dentist's appointment. In high school a lot of kids had cars. A friend had his wheels stolen while in the HS parking lot, but only heard of that once. He didn't have a fancy car.

[gfretwell]

If they blow off that $20,000 a year we throw at their K-12 education every year they are never getting out of poverty. Planning on your career in the NBA is only going to work for one in a couple million of them. Prison or dying in the street is a far more likely outcome.

[gfretwell]

Everyone that is not on welfare pays for that education, either in direct property taxes or buried in their rent.

[micky]

I just love the implicit argument that it's good to do bad things if it creates jobs.

The question should be, Is it a good idea or not?

I had a friend in college who thought the Viet Nam war was a good thing because it was good for the economy. I wasn't capable of judging the war, but I know that's not a good reason.

[jimmy]

We are all energy hogs.

If we're not going to build pipelines, we need more nuclear plants...now!

[trader_4]

It's not a dedictaed VoTec, it's part of our HS system. The issue was preparing public school students for trade type jobs. You claimed that HS had eliminated shop, so students can't learn skill like using a hammer. I simply pointed out that it's actually gone the opposite way, that HS students here have courses of study that teach HVAC, auto repair, electrical trades, etc. School systems shouldn't be pushing anything. They should and do help students assess their aptitudes, their abilities and help guide them to career possibilities where they can succeed.

Since I do most of my own repairs, I haven't had a lot of experience with all of that. But I think your observation about the HVAC guys is probably right. I had not really thought about it, but from what I recall seeing in the neighborhood, I don't see what you see with landscapers or roofers. Same with electricians here.

[trader_4]

Funny, you never hear Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson, Obama or Black Lies Matter talking about that, encouraging their own people to stay in school, to straighten up and fly right. It's all white people's fault. And the Democrats refuse to allow school vouchers, so that poor families in the inner city could get their kid out of a failing school and send them to a school of their choice.