OT? -- Newsgroup Moderation Software/Programs

I appreciate your thoughts and feedback on all of this.

The downside for the annexcafe newsgroups is that they are not connected to the general Usenet newsgroup network. That means that people can't just go to their news server (such as news.eternal-september.org or news.aioe.org ) and search newsgroups to find any of the annexcafe newsgroups. That means that too few people from the general public would be able to find and use any particular newsgroup there.

So, for example, if I wanted to create an alt.home.repair.moderated newsgroup, placing it inside a private NNTP-based system like annexcafe system wouldn't work since most people would never be able to find it.

And, to use the example of creating an alt.home.repair.MODERATED newsgroup, I would only want to do it if:

1) the moderation system would be virtually automatic in most cases where legitimate posters could be "whitelisted" and their posts would automatically go straight through and be posted right away; 2) I wouldn't have to spend an exorbitant amount of time screening out the obviously sick, demented, trashy, and obviously off-topic/political-opinion posts; and, 3) I wouldn't want to spend any time screening posts that are generally on-topic even if they represent ideas or contain comments that I wouldn't personally agree with. In other words, I wouldn't want to be moderating the content at all except to eliminate the obviously sick, demented, trashy, and clearly off-topic/political-opinion posts.

If the above were possible, I think that type of modestly moderated newsgroup would flow well and -- other than not seeing a bunch of total garbage that some people post -- the readers and users would see an easy-to-use, quickly responsive, and meaningful newsgroup.

As another example, there is a newsgroup called alt.social-security-disability that still exists, but has been destroyed by spammers and is no longer of use to anyone. It used to be an excellent resource for learning about, understanding, and figuring out how social security, SSDI, SSI, VA benefits, and disability benefits work. If it were possible to create an alt.social-security-disability.MODERATED newsgroup along the lines that I described above, it could be resurrected and would once again become a meaningful and useful newsgroup.

One problem with the automatic "whitelist" system is something that I think you may have already mentioned -- how to prevent spoofers and spammers from just adopting the posting name of someone who is already whitelisted and submit crap/trash/spam in that name. Somehow, I think the automatic whitelist system would have to be specific enough to do something like also identify the MAC ID of the poster who is whitelisted so a spoofer/spammer couldn't just use the same name and get their crap/trash posts whitelisted.

Reply to
TomR
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They would have to connect to the server that is hosting the "private newsgroup hierarchy". Just like you have to go to google.com to SEARCH google. Just like *you* go to eternal-september.org to access

*this* newsgroup. [Sorry, it's too early in the morning for me... what am I missing in your argument?]

They wouldn't be able to find it on a news server that wasn't participating in that hierarchy.

Just like you can't participate in the "Home Repair Forum" without going to . Or, the Old Classic Car forum without visiting

Granted, you can visit either of these just by pointing your browser at the URL; by contrast, you'd have to configure a "news provider" in your "news reader" software to access that "private" news service (assuming they allow folks to connect to it without preregistering, etc.).

If you set up a mailing list, folks would have to go to a particular "place" to join that list ("subscribe"). E.g., the FreeBSD mailing lists are accessed via .

If you set up a blog, then they'll have to come to your blog's web page to read it (and comment on it).

My ISP doesn't host a news service any more (not enough demand to justify the maintenance). So, I went looking for "public" NNTP servers.

My ISP doesn't host a *mail* service any more (too much work, liability, etc.) so I use other mail servers.

I guess I don't see the problem -- given that you have to *do* something to get access to ANY news server (how did you find out about eternal september?). Is it such an impediment to have a web page that tells folks how to access that private hierarchy on that particular server? ("For OE users, do the following...")

That's relatively easy to do. STUMP has provisions for white and black lists. But, someone would have to maintain those lists!

Ah, there's the rub. How do you decide what's sick, demented, trashy, OT, etc.? I can write a subject line: "Something very pertinent to this group" and fill the body with something entirely inappropriate (OhMiGosh... I lied!).

I can sidestep keyword/badword filters by exploiting the fact that people can understand content that machines won't, taken literally: trunnp iz n S-hole!

(ever wonder why you see posts where digits replace letters, etc.? p3ni5)

A good moderator doesn't inject personal bias into what is considered "appropriate". However, a good moderator might prune posts to elide OT stuff that is embedded in an otherwise appropriate post.

Entropy is a bitch. :> In order to provide the "order" you crave, someone (something) has to exert effort to push back against the disorder.

This was the appeal of the user-moderated mailing list approach; the folks most interested in keeping the list "on topic" had the tools to do so! Rather than walking away, disgusted, when the list deteriorated, you could actually take matters into your own hands and *do* something about it (though at personal peril -- as is true of any moderator).

But, it's only as good as the "clientele" make it. I.e., if it attracts kooks and wackjobs, then there's very little you can do to keep things on-topic.

[For the "new product prototype" lists, you couldn't get ON the list without having been SELECTED to evaluate the product! This goes a long way to scraping off the "undesirables"...]

I suspect the easiest way to do so would be to create a "SSDI Forum" and advertise its presence -- perhaps with a post on that newsgroup. Of course, you risk drawing the undesirables -- which you will then have to un-register.

If you're truly obsessed with "purity", you can exploit some credential that is user-specific (e.g., your phone number -- not an email address cuz you can have multiple of those!) and implement an authentication/verification scheme based on that (call the number and tell them what to type in on their confirmation form)

This is impractical -- unless you are protecting something that THEY truly consider to be valuable!

Of course! And, to get that list of whitelisted users, they simply look at the posts that were "approved"!

With a private news server, the server can require authentication before allowing the connection (username, password).

Likewise, (with a private server) you can require a credential that is never visible in the final post (e.g., "Tom, you must begin each post with the word 'Frodbelg'. I will verify this against your name -- then, elide it from the ACTUAL post.")

Authentication in open systems is always a challenge. E.g., what's to stop me from acting *like* the moderator and sending MY posts directly to the "approved" mechanism?

Unless you and I are on the same network segment, you can't "see" my MAC address.

And, while you *could* see my IP address, that might change tomorrow... or, an hour from now -- depending on how my ISP allocates IP addresses.

Authentication is usually handled by layering a suitable mechanism in/on the actual data stream.

E.g., I can send you an email and *claim* to be someone else (by forging the email headers -- with an appropriate server in the middle). But, if I *sign* my message with *my* "key" -- which you can VERIFY using public mechanisms -- then the headers no longer are part of the authentication process (as they shouldn't be!). Instead, the authentication is handled by this other mechanism.

[But, that requires support for that mechanism among your participants!]

This is how you "know" that iexplorer.exe is a genuine Microsoft program and not something that *I* created (wipeharddisk.exe) and renamed to something that would fool you!

You have to remember, all of these protocols were designed in a non-adversarial envrionment. People WANTED to communicate. They didn't want impediments that stood in the way.

And, access to The Network tended to be via semi-official gatekeepers (school IT departments, etc.) so there was some level of accountability (albeit loose) -- misbehave and you loose your privilege of access! (you couldn't show up at the IT department desk wearing a wig and marx brothers glasses/mustache claiming to be John Doe #7 to get yet another account!)

Look at some of the forums that are available and see what you think about how "on-topic" they trend. I.e., if you find something that seems well behaved, in practice, that would be something you might suggest looking at in closer detail ("How would this format work for *me*?")

Reply to
Don Y

Try the home repair forum at dslreports.com:

formatting link

Warning: Keep your posts on-topic because the mods are humorless and heavy-handed (sort of like Seinfeld's Soup Nazi).

Reply to
Mr. Fuxitup

That's my point -- a private NNTP-based system like the annexcafe system uses a news server that does not participate in the broader Usenet hierarchy. So, placing a group there would make it virtually invisible to the general Usenet-using public where people find newsgroups like the one that we are on now. So, that wouldn't do what I would like to achieve.

That is probably my only option at this point. So, I may have to re-visit the STUMP website and hosting service to see if I can figure it out and try doing what I want to do.

I am not too concerned about that part. We all see some really sick, demented, trashy, and obviously off-topic/political-opinion posts here in this group. I am not talking about screening out anything that is in a gray area -- I mean just blocking the really sick, demented, trashy, and obviously off-topic/political-opinion posts. And, even if someone slips one past the goalie, that would be an exception and that person could just be blocked in the future.

About all of the alternative options -- mailing list groups, blogs, etc. -- I am not really interested in those even though I participate in such forums and have created my own that are up and running as we speak. But, none of them are NNTP-based forums. I am looking for an NNTP-based open forum that can be fairly easily and automatically moderated to keep it basically on topic and free from the obvious group-killing spam and crap posts.

Again, I appreciate all of your thoughts and feedback. Through what you have written and what some others have written, I am coming to the conclusion that the STUMP approach may be all that I need. And, since I don't know enough geek stuff to do the free version on my own, I would probably have to opt for the paid version.

Reply to
TomR

P.S. An example of a moderated, easily located and accessible, NNTP-based forum, there is one called: misc.taxes.moderated That newsgroup has only on-topic posts and no complete crap posts, and it works fairly well because the moderator(s) are able to turn posts around and post them fairly quickly. I don't believe that they have an automatic "whitelist" system, but if they did, it would probably make the newsgroup even more responsive. They could do that because there are a small group of posters who have the right knowledge and who do not post nonsense.

A similar group -- called misc.legal.moderated -- is somewhat functional, but it takes so long for posts to show up that I think that many people have given up on using that newsgroup. Ironically, I think the moderator(s) of the above two groups may be the same individual(s)/people -- but I am not sure.

Reply to
TomR

But folks have to *do* something to GET access to USENET. I.e., they have to go find an NNTP server (paid or free). So, why can't they know (i.e., "be told") to use this particular server to gain access to this particular group?

Or, do you just want people to "stumble" onto your group while they are browsing the hierarchy of available groups?

If they want to watch/participate in any of the available fora (which is what has taken USENET's place, for the most part), they have to *find* the particular forum of interest and visit a specific URL with their browser. This doesn't seem to bother them (based on the traffic I see at many fora). And, while there, they have nothing telling them about *other* fora that they might be interested in visiting...

The difference between forum-based and NNTP-based (as well as email based) dialogues is that the former tend not to be threaded. You just see posts in the order they were received and have to mentally sort out who is replying to whom (by contrast, email and news are threaded so each reply is tied to a previous message). IMO, this is what makes forum-based interaction clumsy.

You might also be vulnerable to the author being disinterested in maintaining that service, forward-going. And, of course, someone (you?) will have to shell out $$ for the service... (what happens when YOU get tired of paying for it?)

I don't mean to discourage you but, rather, give you a heads-up to what lies ahead. Moderation is a thankless task -- regardless of how it's done (if *you* are the entity that people associate with "moderation", then *you* will be the one getting an earful about problems with the "service", etc.).

@RBowman: why are you NO LONGER moderating the group you mentioned?

Yes, but a human being needs to decide that something is "sick"; it's relatively difficult to make a "program" come to that conclusion. So, it *will* get past your "censor".

Good luck!

I'm off to pay-back yet another favor (with a gross of pecan sandies).

Reply to
Don Y

There would be no way for me to "tell" people anything because I would be relying on them finding the newsgroup that interests them in the same way that you and I and other found this newsgroup -- which you answered below. I would have no plans to advertise the newsgroup.

Yes, that's how I found this newsgroup -- by searching the hierarchy of available groups.

I do know the difference between forum-based and NNTP-based groups, and about email "listservs", etc. For this idea, I am only interested in an NNTP-based newsgroup that can be found in the hierarchy of available groups.

My only interest is in whether a "moderated" NNTP-based newsgroup can be set up where much of the moderation is automatic and the group flows smoothly and posts appear quickly for all of the "whitelisted" posters.

And, yes, we could go around and around about the definition of sick, twisted, trashy, completely off topic posts. I would have no interest in screening out anything except for the really sick, twisted, trashy, and completely off topic posts. And, people could whine and complain until the cows came home about the moderation process. I would just ignore all of the complaints and not respond.

Reply to
TomR

Then I suspect you will see much less interest/participation than you might, otherwise. Folks don't come to USENET, in general, when they can GET to a web site that will give them pretty much the same information. "Click on this link and you're AT the information you seek" instead of "set up a news account on some public server (which YOU will have to find) and *then* go hunting for the information you seek".

[Or, post through google groups -- ick!]

I think you'll find that groveling through the USENET hierarchy is an obsolescent means of finding information/forums. Nowadays, people search for topics (e.g., "home repair") and get pointers to dozens (hundreds?) of forums and other sources of related information.

The answer is yes. But, in practice, you will find the answer becomes "no" -- unless you have someone who wants to take responsibility for keeping that working. Someone has to "take ownership" for it to work. And, once that gets tired of the job, things fall apart -- unless you can rope someone else into the role.

You'd be much different than *most* of the moderators, then! :> Most folks quickly tire of the "ingratitude": "F*ck it! No one is PAYING me to put up with this sh*t!"

As I said before, "good luck". But, don't be surprised if you become disillusioned/jaded in the process. :<

Reply to
Don Y

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