Need ideas for replacing a garage flourescent fixture Featured

They are listed and code compliant. Plus his new fixture fastens to the ceiling, it's not relying on the box.

His fixture secures to the ceiling, it's not held by the box, as are all the long, rectangular fluorescent or LED fluorescent replacement fixtures like that one that I've seen.

the only real support you have the drywall holding

They are code compliant, simple and widely used. I've heard no horror stories.

There is no hole left unfilled. An electrical box is there, further covered by the new LED fixture.

That could be true, depending on when it was installed and how the fixture was rated.

Good grief, now you're going to mount it like it needs to hold a 100lb chandelier. It's an LED sheet metal and plastic fixture that weighs a few pounds.

You were speaking with an idiot or someone who wants to play with a homeowner. Was this guy claiming to be an electrical inspector?

You were speaking with an idiot or someone who wants to play with a homeowner. You should have asked him if that's what he requires in new construction and if he fails it if it's just a plastic box nailed to one side of a joist, which is what is typically used in new construction today. And to direct you to the NEC code that backs up his BS.

Wow, that's big of him. "Might be OK" for a porcelain socket to have a box nailed to one side of a joist.

That's what I said.

As I have said a couple of times, *some* fixtures and devices can act as a junction box. They have to be designed that way and listed as such. The original may have been, but the "flush mount" one that you linked to does not appear to be designed that way. That's why I've been mentioning junction boxes since the beginning.

Which can be done with a hole the size of 4" junction box. See below.

I don't know why anything would need to be ripped. If you want the box 1/2" from the joist, just sister a 2 x 4 flush with the bottom of the joist. Then you mount the box so the opening hangs down by the thickness of your ceiling material. If want some other distance, use multiple boards. Or use a single piece of wood that spans the joist bay, supported by cleats or pocket screwed or joist hangers, etc.

Here's a joist hanger method:

I can think of multiple ways to mount the box without a single rip cut. Cross cuts? Of course. But ripping? Nope.

What? These brackets are fan rated. Maybe there was some misunderstanding between you guys. Watch the video here. If installed per the video shown at this link, it would be one of the strongest methods and you only need a hole the size of the junction box.

Maybe. If the fixture itself can then be secured to the ceiling and/or structure then the box would flatten out once the weight is removed.

"Might be ok". I don't mount ceiling fixtures using a "might be ok" method.

Yes. We agree. I appreciate that you confirmed what I was told.

Yes. We agree. I appreciate that you confirmed and added the important caveat that I wasn't told, which is the fixture must be _listed_ as being able to be a junction box.

Given they're all UL listed, that doesn't tell me if they're listed also to be the equivalent of a junction box. What do I look for on the markings?

Yes. We agree. I appreciate that you provide alternative solutions, which is what I had asked for since I was expecting a junction box and was surprised that this is the first of dozens of lights I've retrofitted to LED that did NOT have a junction box.

I too was confused. I think he was thinking of flush mounted junction boxes. When I put the junction box in, that's when I'll worry about making it flush.

Bear in mind I've replaced all my interior incandescant fixtures with LED where the garage & basement are my last bastions of the old ways of doing things.

One question (since there are three other ballast fixtures in that garage, is what the energy efficiency is between these common alternatives:

1. 4-foot 40W fluorescent tubes with one 8"x3" ballast per two tubes
2. 4-foot 17W LED tubes with one 8"x3" ballast per two tubes
3. 4-foot internal-circuitry LED tubes that don't need the ballasts

Yes! That's almost certainly what the code guy was trying to tell me! I appreciate that you figured it out as I wasn't quite sure of it.

Thanks for the ideas. I am leaning toward the simplest safest method, if that exists together.

This is great to know that the tab method is strong. That's good information because I want to be safe and easy. Safe always wins out over easy.

Up until now, it has been easy because there was always a junction box when I converted the interior "gumballs" to LED fixtures. The hardest part was getting the fiberglass out of my eyes from the insulation inside those gumballs.

Yes. We agree. He was just mentioning the tipping to say that I had to watch out for tipping if I both attached the junction box only at one side and then hung something heavy on it.

Thank you for all the ideas as that's what I was missing the instant I saw that Romex cable hanging down with nothing attached to it when I removed the heavy (very heavy in fact) previous light fixture.

snippage

I hesitate to suggest it - but - if you are likely to replace the other 3 fixtures, you might wish to consider & plan for that now - rather than re-inventing the wheel each time.. Some LEDs can be daisy-chained; some can't ; and there is usually a limit on how many can be linked. John T.

I converted 4 of my garage fixtures to these Type B tube lights a couple years ago. Supposedly 5500 lumens for 59 watts. I'll change the remaining 6 after Cabbagehead and Kacklin Kamala get tossed from the White House and the bulbs return to a more sane price.

FWIW: I finally spent my government stimulus check. Yah, I filled my car up with gas.

I'm not really sure what the markings would be, but basically if there is a box or a cover plate, a means to secure the Romex/cord to the fixture and all of the connections end up inside the enclosure, you should be good to go.

It might say something like "direct wire" but I'm not sure what else it might say.

A garbage disposer is a good example. It may or may not come with the clamp shown to secure the incoming cable, but one is required. See here:

Seems to me you need to "worry about making it flush" during the planning stages so that you know where the support has to be placed.

I don't know.

For some reason I'm not confident that we are on the same page here. I don't know what you mean by "the tab method". Here is what I am saying:

I do *not* feel that the old work boxes with the little tabs that swing out and sit against the drywall should be used for a ceiling fixture. I would *not* use something like this if anything was going to be hanging from it.

Good call. For fixtures that can't be daisy chained with low voltage wiring, John could use surface mount wiring between fixtures if he doesn't want exposed Romex. Probably just fine for a garage.

I wired the motion sensing fixture in this closet with surface mount wiring because I didn't want to try and fish wires through the 90 YO walls. Once closet is full of stuff, you barely notice the painted tracks.

For support reasons use a METAL refit box, not plastic - and screw it firmly to the joist. You might get away with a rough-in box (not refit). The refit boxes have the snap-in "wings" which you do not NEED if screwing to the joist.

Good grief, you guys sure can complicate things. The freaking junction box doesn't support this, the pics he posted show what appears to be a big square metal support plate that anchors to the ceiling. What do the instructions say? All he needs is a plastic old work round electric box, cut a hole in the drywall, put it in with the romex running into it. If some dope later wants to hang a 200 lb chandelier in the garage, it's up to them to figure out how to secure that.

I saw pictures, using Firefox 98.

Also, your sig separator is wrong. It should be "-- " (--SPACE) on a line by itself.

Thanks for that price confirmation on that one option.

The math is that the cost of replacing the bulbs/tubes in the existing fixture has to be less than (or at least equal to) the cost of a new one.

At those ~$20/tube prices, that knocks out one of my options.

That would make it $40 per fixture, which, at that price, I may as well replace it with a new fixture (which is what I'm doing, in the end).

This may be true, but you've made an assumption that has not been clarified:

"The freaking junction box doesn't support this, the pics he posted show what appears to be a big square metal support plate that anchors to the ceiling."

"Appears to be.."

If he comes back and verifies that, then an old work box may work fine.

However, he has also mentioned other types of fixtures that may indeed hang from the junction box. At this point, he knows all of the options available to him regardless of what fixture he chooses.

As I've said all along "I would never *hang* a fixture from a old work box that just uses the wing tabs." I'm pretty sure that I've made that abundantly clear.

" Firefox does not trust this site because it uses a certificate that is not valid for iili.io. " Using FireFox 84. Dunno , don't care much, rarely ever get that. John T.

Yes. What I called tabs she calls spikes. I think we're talking the same thing.

Is this better? https://freeimage.host/i/EeNaCGhttps://freeimage.host/i/EeNqQahttps://freeimage.host/i/EeNcGfhttps://freeimage.host/i/EeN7Qshttps://freeimage.host/i/EeN13l

Sure they would all work, depending on how close to the joist you want the center of the fixture to be.

Did you see trader_4's comment about the plate being secured to the ceiling in some manner? i.e. the junction box may not need to support the 4' led panel.

Is that also a viable option for you? How much does the fixture weigh? What do the instructions say about the installation?

Nope. No security errors but just a blank freeimage web page ... never mind me - everyone else saw the pics. John T.

I'm sorry for having not responded to questions I may not have seen.

I no longer see trader's posts because I plonked him yesterday due to what I perceived as his negative attitude which I didn't find conducive toward the goal of helping people. I just don't have the time to try to deal with such people so I apologize for not having responded to posts I may have missed.

But you have been supportively helpful all along so I'll be glad to answer your questions.

Yes. The removable back plate is designed to slip out of the light (it even has an arrow as to the direction to slide) as shown in this photo.

The instructions show clearly they want you to first attach the plate loosely to the junction box and then attach the four corners firmly to the ceiling drywall and then to tighten up the junction box screws last.

Then they show you slipping the panel onto the plate which is firmly attached at this point by four screws and two bolts to the ceiling.