I bought a thin four foot long flat LED panel to replace an old huge four foot long six inches deep four bulb fluorescent ceiling light in the garage.
The replacement is super thin and has no room for wires to be tucked under as it was designed to be attached flush to a junction box in the center.
But when I removed the old fluorescent light, there was no junction box. All I have is about a foot of Romex cable coming out of the ceiling.
The half-inch wide hole is right next to a ceiling beam though. That ceiling beam was what the old very heavy fluorescent light was screwed into but the new light flat LED panel is designed for four drywall anchors.
Here are pictures of all of the above.
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What options do I have knowing I can easily return the 3,700 lumen panel. But I don't really feel like digging holes & retrofitting a junction box.
I also got a three-way 8,000 lumen light that maybe I'll put in its place? Do they sell a porcelain bulb holder that fits on just the bare Romex cable?
To start with, that is not code. The Romex should be inside in a junction box. In some cases, if designed as such, the fixture can serve as a junction box but that's typically done *above* the finished ceiling, such as with an exhaust fan, etc. I don't know of any situation where it's OK (code) for Romex cable to simply come through a hole in a finished surface.
You can certainly buy a "porcelain bulb holder that fits on just the bare Romex cable" but the Romex still needs to be in a junction box, secured to that junction box and then attached to the fixture. The fixture would then be attached to the junction box.
re: "But I don't really feel like digging holes & retrofitting a junction box."
Then you don't feel like performing a safe installation.
If you get past that point, come on back and we (a.h.r.) can discuss options for doing it properly.
Your photo links return a "security risk" warning - then when that is accepted - a "not found". ... feel like we've been down this road once before ? John T.
How does that resolve his "no junction box" issue? It'll never meet code with a piece of Romex hanging out of the ceiling like that.
Even if there is a junction above the ceiling, it's concealed, so while better, it's still not code. It would need to be exposed and brought (or extended) down to be flush with the exposed plane of the ceiling material.
Looking at the source code for those pages, I can see no reason at all for calling that stuff a security risk. I think the problem is with your security package.
There are some devices that don't require a junction box. Recessed lights. garbage disposals, wall mounted heaters, for example. I don't remember the exact phrase but it comes down to reading the instructions for the individual device.
cut a hole in the ceiling to dit a "rework" box and screw it to the ceiling joist for extra support and mount the featherweight LED to the box as it is designed for.
And really, if you have to ask, you should NOT be attempting the job.
In each of your examples, the case of the unit itself serves as the junction box, as I mentioned in my initial response:
"In some cases, if designed as such, the fixture can serve as a junction box"
e.g. On my GD, there is a removable plate that accepts a Romex clamp style connector. All of the wires are behind that plate and the Romex is secured with the clamp, just like it would be if a junction box was used.
In any case, the wire in this situation should not be just hanging out of the ceiling as it is. The device you linked to appears that it would indeed lower his fixture such that he would then have room to connect the wires, but it would not be a code compliant installation unless he puts in a junction box.
I'm willing to accept being wrong, but I don't think that I am.
Do you think John would be ok if he used that extension I mentioned plus the box Bob. mentioned? That might be the least work plus give him some room to do his wiring.
I'm not sure that I would hang any ceiling fixture from a box with tabs.
Nailed/screwed to the joist, some wood sistered to the joist to get it where he wants it, or maybe one of those with the adjustable bar that stretches between joists.
This one's easy. Just stick the LED panel on the bottom of the existing fixture. Rip the guts out of course, ballast, wires, lenses. It might even meet code as the romex is now routed into a conforming fixture, but don't take my word for that.
Probably, as long as the fixture isn't hanging from just the old work box with the tabs. The box should be attached to structure, not just hanging by tabs behind the drywall with the fixture then hanging from that.
Maybe I'm being over-cautious but maybe it's a light weight LED fixture for a few years and then suddenly it's a 100 lb crystal chandelier. ;-) (I know it's a garage)
They don't write the code for the "best case" situation, they write for the worst case i.e. preparing for the future, when the next guy comes along and changes things. Do it right the first time.
Buy a round plastic old work electrical box, cut out a hole, put box in, put fixture up. The old work ones have swing out tabs, you shove it in tighten up two screws and the tabs swing out behind the drywall.
Thanks for all the advice. I think I've figured it out. Let me know if I got something wrong. Sorry that some of you couldn't see the pictures.
This is apparently the rationale.
I hadn't expected no junction box.
Normally that's not code.
Particularly for a garage under a bedroom.
Normally you can't have fire or smoke access.
It's to code _because_ the fixture acted as the junction box.
But without that fixture, it _needs_ a junction box.
If for nothing else, it needs the strain relief.
And all holes must be plugged up so smoke/fire can't tunnel through.
There are apparently a few basic solutions most people know. A. You can cut a 16x16 square & shore it up & mount a new jct box B. You can use a (blue) plastic tabbed remodeling jct box (usu round) C. You can put that box close to the joist to screw it on one side D. You can put the old light back & use non-ballast 4-foot LED tubes
That's in best-to-worst order for a variety of reasons (not the least of which is electricity is required to run the ballast) but I think I'll approach the solution in the reverse order of those options above.
If they're not too expensive, I'll simply go to Home Depot tomorrow to look for four-foot internal-ballast LED tubes (the ballast is in the LED tube instead of being external) which I hadn't known even existed, until now (most of my fluorescent tubes are LED with external ballasts).
If I can't find an internal-ballast LED tubes at a decent price, I'll put in a blue tabbed plastic round retrofit box but screwed on one side to the joist... just in case in the future someone wants to hang a heavy chandelier in the garage after I'm gone (that's why code exists).
In summary, this is the first ceiling light I've replaced that did NOT have a junction box, so it threw me for a loop.
Just as an fyi, we had the same situation in our house. Built in
1995 or so, and we moved in about five years ago.
There was a twin 40 fluorescent fixture in the kitchen which we replaced quickly 'cuz a: often didn't work, b: ugly as sin.
ANd eyup, the electrical feed was simply Romex coming through the plasterboard ceiling. Oh, and the fixure was drywall-screwed into the plasterboard without any anchoring into any beams.
We actually had a licensed electrician (well, his helper..) perform the replacement 'cuz, well, Father Time and I have been having way too much time together..
(the worker said that yeah, many of the houses in this area built at that time were like this, and it gives him steady work... and that he seriously hopes no one gets hurt when one of them falls down)
I basically agree with everything you've said except for item #3. You could have just left that out.
The location has no specific relation to the need for a junction box. The word "particularly" doesn't apply here. The purpose of a junction box is to protect the connections and also (mainly) to contain sparks and therefore required wherever a wiring connection is present. IOW just because this location is between a garage and a bedroom doesn't create any "particular" need for a junction box. It's the NEC that does.
Now, just for conversation sake...
re: "A. You can cut a 16x16 square & shore it up & mount a new jct box"
(Units matter, so I'll assume you mean 16" x 16" square.)
Actually, you only need a hole big enough for the junction box. You then use one of these style supports. There are various styles available at most home centers and electrical supply stores. It allows you to position the box anywhere within the span of the joist bay.
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re: "B. You can use a (blue) plastic tabbed remodeling jct box"
Maybe you can, but I wouldn't. If you plan to hang the light fixture from the box, the only real support you have the drywall holding the box and in reality only the 3 points where the tabs make contact. Maybe that's OK for a light led fixture (maybe) but I wouldn't use it. I'd use something more secure.
I had called the town and they said that the code is DIFFERENT for a garage depending on whether it's "living quarters" above (stricter) versus something else (less strict), specially for the "hole" left unfilled.
The reason is smoke/fire and not electrical though, as I understood it.
Yes. Electrically "a" facsimile of what we're calling a junction box is required, but in the case of the original light, it's to code as the light fixture itself acted as the de facto junction box according to the town guy I spoke to (he asked for the pictures and asked to see how the connections were made before he told me that).
Agree that the upstairs is relevant to fire and smoke worries. Not electrical. Thanks for pointing that out.
He told me the 16 inches assumed the joists are on 16 inch centers. The point is to mount the junction box securely on more than just one side.
Those two shoring studs would be perpendicular to the joists of course.
He warned that the wood shoring up the junction box will have to be ripped so that the box itself will be flush with the ceiling board.
He suggested against those but said they were admissable. His point was that the tabs don't have all that much strength. But he said it would be ok.
He also said if I mounted one side to the joist, the other side would tip.
Yes. He said that might be ok for what he called a gumball (I think that's what he called it) which I took to mean a porcelain light bulb socket with a glass housing around it like a fishbowl.
I forgot to mention the gumball in my post so thanks for bringing that up. One option is the porcelain socket and then I attach the 8000 lumen light.
I like that idea because it is very light and it is very bright, and it takes up the least amount of ceiling space (more for bikes!).
About the only disadvantage is it would stick down lower but the garage is high enough that I've never come close to hitting the ceiling.
In my shed I replaced the existing fluorescent tubes with LEDs from the local big box store.
The electronics are built into the tubes. I wouldn't really call them a ballast. Anyway, I removed the existing ballast and direct wired the 110 service to the tombstones at the end. You do have to check that these are nonshunted for obvious reasons.
I also had a couple locations where it was simpler to add an LED shop light and remove the entire old hanging fixture. These shop lights can't be flush mounted so that won't work for you. But the light is plenty bright (and much better than the old fluorescents which were marginal in cold weather.)
You could do that but what I was envisioning for you was something different. You could leave your old fixture attached but empty, and just stick your new flat panel onto the bottom of that. It wouldn't be difficult to drill for a couple of bolts.
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