Wiring New LED Ceiling Light Fixture for 1960s House

[Elle N]

House built in the 1960s. Dad with dementia removed an old ceiling light fixture months ago. Mom wants a new light fixture.

A total of three ceiling light fixtures are on the circuit. The breaker for the circuit is rated at 15 amps. The ceiling is in the basement of the home (so not the attic and so I think cooler in temperature). One wall switch controls all three ceiling lights. The switch is not dimmable.

The ceiling light fixture box has the (now usual) warning that wire rated for 75 degree C is needed.

I think the wire coming out of the junction box is AWG 12 but it might be AWG 14. I believe the 1960s-era insulation is the potential problem.

The old light fixture used an incandescent bulb. The two other ceiling lights on the circuit used to have incandescent bulbs but are now using LED bulbs and working fine.

Three wires bundles come out of the ceiling light junction box. Voltages across each wire bundle and ground (the junction box itself) with wall switch on and off and breaker open and shut are as follows:

Black wire bundle -- Found with a black wire nut holding the wires together.

120 volts with wall switch on and breaker shut. 120 volts with wall switch off and breaker shut. 0 volts with breaker open.

Red wire -- Found with bare ends twisted together, no wire nut.

120 volts with wall switch on and breaker shut. 0 volts with wall switch off and breaker shut. 0 volts with breaker open

White wire -- Found with bare ends twisted together, no wire nut.

0 volts with wall switch on and breaker shut. 0 volts with wall switch off and breaker shut. 0 volts with breaker open. ?nut.

The brand new LED light fixture has a black wire, a white wire, and the bare copper wire.

Is the following plan correct? Wire nut the red wire bundle to the LED light fixture's black wire. Wire nut the white wire bundle to the LED light fixture's white wire. Attach the LED light fixture's copper wire to the junction box (which is grounded). Put electrical tape over the black wire nut (holding the black wires together) and prepare to stuff back into junction box.

Is the black wire present just to connect ___ to ___ elsewhere in the house?

[Dean Hoffman]

Sounds like the plan. Why would the insulation be an issue? LEDs run cooler than incandescents.

[Elle N]

The packaging on just about any new light fixture has this caution: MINIMUM 75 DEGREES C SUPPLY CONNECTORS.

From googling I understand the concern is that the insulation will deteriorate.

But yes, the LEDs run cooler and draw lower amps.

I suppose it is part of the evolution of the electrical code, all to promote safety.

Thank you for checking my work.

[trader_4]

Yes. And it sounds right, except there is no need to put tape over wire nuts.

[Ralph Mowery]

Seems odd to me that there is no wire nut over the red wires. Or even the white wires.

Agree, no need to tape over wire nuts if done correctly . At work there are thousands of wire nuts in use and no tape over them. Sometimes , while not needed, we would tape over the wire nuts of equipment that viberated a lot like some motors.

[micky]

There was, but her father didn't finish one day and never got back to it. DAMHIKT

Meaning not too much insulation stripped from the wire. He probably didn't strip more than the electrician did, but Elle should look. Even the electrician could have done it wrong. :) (The electrician who did this house made 3 mistakes, but none that affected safety in the slightest. I'm going more by physicians.)

I thought years ago I saw a lot of taped wire nuts ???? but maybe they were all from the same guy.

[gfretwell]

I suspect the hot black wire would be for a fan that had an integrated switch. Red to the fan light and (white) neutral is just a neutral. Wire nut all the connections and rock on.

[gfretwell]

I am not sure where anyone got the idea to tape wire nuts but it probably dates back to when wires were soldered and taped. Most electricians will scoff at it when they see it, perhaps with some profanity. Same with taping up devices like switches and receptacles. It just makes an ugly mess for the next guy. I have even heard of inspectors who fail it on a 110.3(B).

[Ralph Mowery]

It could come from when the split bolts or wire lugs and screws were used and then taped with the varnished cambric tape and then electrical or even the friction tape.

I was glad when we switched that out at work and went to some rubber boots that slipped over the connections and a couple of ty-raps held them on.

[Clare Snyder]

Inspectors around here would automatically fail a job if they found taped wire-nuts - the rationalle being if sparky didn't trust his workmanship (that the nuts would stay on) why should the inspector???

[micky]

Good to know. I'm not going to let your guys inspect my work.

[Elle N]

It was only I who had the (amateur's notion) of taping the wire nut. I never liked pushing all the wire bundles into a box and risking a nut coming loose from the nut, say, rubbing against other parts. But I understand people's point here: If the wire nut is snug and the wire ends are stripped to the right length, the nut should not come free, and there should not be a risk of a short/fault.

Background on what happened here: In the 1950s, when my Dad was a young twenty-something, he wired the family's entire three bedroom, 1.5 bath vacation cabin, per code. Now he's in his 90s. Some months ago Mom asked him to change out the fixture's light bulb. With his mind not working right, he took the whole fixture down. (The old fixture was grabbed up by the crew who installed a new deck recently, all at Mom's direction.) Now the tools and ladder are locked up. Dad appears to have left the black wires alone but of course disconnected the red wire bundle and the white wire bundle. I guess he mislaid the wire nuts. The ceiling outlet was left open and exposed (granted out of reach of all) for the last several months.

The other day Dad sat and watched me work. I got "bit" (very mildly shocked) the other day. I stupidly failed to realize that, while the wall switch shut off power to the red wire bundle, the breaker had to be open to shut off power to the black wire bundle. Dad still knows enough to keep prompting me to check for voltage with my little voltage tester (the type with the little light bulb with two wires coming out of it) and was clearly displeased when I said I got bit. So was I. Dumbass mistake by me.

With the wall switch off and the breaker open, I connected the new LED fixture for a test drive yesterday. It works great. I am just tweaking its installation now.

I appreciate folks checking my work.

[gfretwell]

You should be OK. The last Maryland inspector I saw worked out the window of his truck and there are plenty of municipal inspectors who do that here. Some AHJs will send them out with 30+ tickets a day so they are not looking at much. I was happy I worked for the state and we didn't get slammed like that.

[Clare Snyder]

That's fair Micky - and I am not going to allow you to do any wiring in my house - - - - -

[TimR]

I don't do it. But I helped with changing a fixture on one of these work projects, and the other guy insisted on taping the wire nuts. He'd worked in one of the local chemical plants and was taught to do it that way. So I guess it's more than an amateur thing.

[micky]

That's fine. It will give us more time for dinner.

[trader_4]

You're right, I missed that.

[Marilyn Manson]

I will admit to taping the occasional switch and/or receptacle.

For example, installing a wide dimmer switch in a very old narrow box. Sometimes I just didn't like the minimal clearance and it made me more comfortable to throw a couple of layers of tape around the screws.

Should I have ripped the old box out the plaster/lath wall, hoping that the dried up cloth insulation on the wires didn't turn to dust and put in a "modern" box, assuming the framing would allow me too? Maybe. Probably. Didn't.

[LegionX]

trader_4 [e-mail] Wrote in message:r

Then why do some manufacturer's of lighting fixtures and fans all state for you to wrap the wirenuts in electrical tape before tucking them into the box and out of the way? Surely they aren't telling you to wire it in an nec illegal manner? And surely they aren't suggesting for you to spend additional time and your tape if there's no benefit to doing so?

[LegionX]

These electricians who scoff might want to read the instruction sheet for the next pendant light they hang. Depending on manufacturer they might be surprised to learn the manufacturer lists taping the wirenuts with electrical tape as the next step after putting the wirenuts on in the first place. They can inform the manufacturer how stupid wasteful and possibly code violating their instructions are if actually followed.

If it's going back into a metal box all of us have been taught to give it a strip of electrical tape across the terminal screws by electricians from master to journeyman in TN and VA. YMMV.

Maybe if you get crazy with the amount of tape you applied. Otherwise dunno about an ugly mess.

Have you personally ever been gigged for it? Do you personally know anyone who has? Not only is our answer no to both questions we've all been taught to do this by various master electricians we apprenticed under. We've never heard an inspector in TN or VA bring it up and between us all we cover a lot of ground in both.