My electrician is coming Thurs to install an additional 100A subpanel, and

[John Kuthe]

FOUR high capacity 240VAC lines out and a number of 120VAC also!

Making this house ALL ELECTRIC! :-)

John Kuthe...

[Home Guy]

Is electricity cheap in Overland Missouri? Or are you still in St Louis?

How many more meth labs can you run with the additional panel? Or is this for your marijuana grow-op?

[Joe 30330]

Impressive though I wouldn't want your electric bill.

[gfretwell]

If it is his only bill, it might not be that bad. Mine is in the $230/mo range but I don't get a gas bill, oil bill or a water bill.

[Arthur Conan Doyle]

Not sure how you substitute electricity for water - assume he means heating water with propane or gas.

That said, unless you are generating your own electricity with turbines or photovoltaic arrays (which have substantial capital costs), electrcity is almost always more expensive than natural gas, heating oil or bottled gas (propane), even taking efficiency into account.

There are a number of calculators on the web. Here's just one:

[Ralph Mowery]

That part is easy.

If you have a well you do not pay for water. In the city water and sewage can run up to be a big bill. Then in the winter in many parts of the country you have to heat the house with something.

About 15 years ago I moved to a larger house that was better built. The old house had gas heat but not too much insulation as it was built about

1965. In the winter months, I was paying more for just the gas heat for the house and hot water than I now pay for electricity with a heat pump and electric water heater.

I am paying around 10 to 12 cents per KWH if I devided the bill correctly a few months back.

[gfretwell]

With a well?

I agree natural gas piped in is usually cheaper than electricity but that is certainly not true of propane here. Propane is expensive ($2.50 to over $4 a gallon and fairly volatile pricing). Electric has been pretty steady at ~11 cents a KWH bottom line. Electricity is also virtually 100% efficient instead of sending a lot of heat up the flue.

[Scott Lurndal]

Substantial? Perhaps a decade ago. My electric bill is now $10/month[*], and the array will pay itself back in seven years; the investment in panels returned 30% the first year (federal tax break) and will return 12.5% p.a. for the next 25 years. Far more secure than any stock market investment.

I'll have fed over a megawatt-hour into the grid in the past year net of my daily usage.

[*] The cost to remain connected to the grid. Most of that will be refunded at the annual true-up, for a net electric cost approaching zero for the year.

[Scott Lurndal]

I'm afraid that depends completely on where you live. In areas with shortages of groundwater, a pump tax is usually applied to any well in the area.

[Scott Lurndal]

Modern gas-fired high-efficiency furnaces run at 98%, the minimum is

78%.

And USD0.11 KWH may be true where you live, but it's hardly universal.

[gfretwell]

The "investment" didn't pay you back, the tax payers did ... with borrowed money.

[Scott Lurndal]

You are, as usual, incorrect.

There was "no pay back", just a reduction in tax. I thought you were in favor of lower taxes?

[gfretwell]

Not paying a tax has the same effect on the budget as getting a refund (probably what you did) or just having the government send you a check. The tax payer still subsidized your solar panels and now the paying electric customers are subsidizing you too unless you are only getting credit for the fuel saving. The rest of the infrastructure still needs to be there unless you want to shiver in the dark all night.

No I was not in favor of boosting the deficit to cut taxes. The only responsible way to cut taxes is to cut spending. The only thing I said about it is if you lived in a red state, you got a bigger piece of the cut. Elections have consequences.

[gfretwell]

Solar subsidies are welfare for the rich.

[Ralph Mowery]

Did not know that was going on in parts of the country.

Seems there is going to be a way to tax everything. I have heard that the states want to put a road tax on the electric cars where you paid a tax for the number of miles driven. That is to make up for the tax lost on gas for roads.

I have not checked on it, but have heard there is a rain tax. That is if you have say a parking lot where the rain can not go into the gound but out to the storm drains you get taxed for that.

[Ralph Mowery]

For heat pumps you can say that electricity is more than 100% efficient.

The heat transfered from the outside is more than the heat produced by electricity if used as resistance heating.

[Arthur Conan Doyle]

I agree electricity is 100% efficient. A good water heater/furnane is 92%, so you have to factor that 8% difference, but even that doesn't make electricity a better deal.

Let's run your numbers:

1 Gallon of Propane is 1.1 Therms. If you are paying $2.50/gallon, 1 therm of propane is $2.27. 1 Therm equals 29kwh. At 0.11/kwh, that's $3.19.

Not really fair to compare spot/peak pricing for propane as you wouldn't pay that for the entire year.

When I was buying ~3000 gallons of propane a year, the contract price ranged from $1.80 to 2.75/gallon depending on when I scheduled fills. I will admit that propane prices are extremely regional. OTOH they tend to track alternative fuels like natural gas and fuel oil, so they don't spike as much as they have in the past.

I'd also check your electricity numbers. They have been trending upwards to cover the cost of alternative fuels, and many PUCs force a tiered rate where once you get above average lighting load, the cost per kwh goes up quite a bit.

[John Kuthe]

On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 3:19:26 PM UTC-5, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote: ...

Run the numbers UP YOUR ASS!!

There is ONLY one place we get fossil fuels! ONE!! And cheap easily utilizable fossil fuels are getting harder and harder (read: more expensive!) but electricity can be generated many ways!

Get it yet?

300 year vision! :-)

John Kuthe, Climate Anarchist and Suburban Renewalist!

[John Kuthe]

The Heat pump heating effect is supplanted with big thick nichrome coils, 240VAC and HIGH WATT! That air WILL get hot!

John Kuthe...

[Scott Lurndal]

So does the ridiculous tax cuts that were passed. As a result of which, my tax burden _increased_, thank you very much. Therefore, the credit for solar (which is benifical to _everyone_ in multiple ways, which is why the solar credit exists) simply meant I paid a bit less than I would have just under the new tax rules; although no where near enough to make up for the increase due to the so-called tax cuts.

I haven't had a refund in a decade.

The $10/month is paying for my portion of the infrastructure, pal.

What you call consequences is pure childish revenge and has no place in a civilized society.