My electrician is coming Thurs to install an additional 100A subpanel, and

FOUR high capacity 240VAC lines out and a number of 120VAC also!
Making this house ALL ELECTRIC! :-)
John Kuthe...
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John Kuthe wrote:

Is electricity cheap in Overland Missouri? Or are you still in St Louis?
How many more meth labs can you run with the additional panel? Or is this for your marijuana grow-op?
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On 8/20/19 8:31 PM, John Kuthe wrote:

Impressive though I wouldn't want your electric bill.
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If it is his only bill, it might not be that bad. Mine is in the $230/mo range but I don't get a gas bill, oil bill or a water bill.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Not sure how you substitute electricity for water - assume he means heating water with propane or gas.
That said, unless you are generating your own electricity with turbines or photovoltaic arrays (which have substantial capital costs), electrcity is almost always more expensive than natural gas, heating oil or bottled gas (propane), even taking efficiency into account.
There are a number of calculators on the web. Here's just one: https://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/gas.html
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says...

That part is easy.
If you have a well you do not pay for water. In the city water and sewage can run up to be a big bill. Then in the winter in many parts of the country you have to heat the house with something.
About 15 years ago I moved to a larger house that was better built. The old house had gas heat but not too much insulation as it was built about 1965. In the winter months, I was paying more for just the gas heat for the house and hot water than I now pay for electricity with a heat pump and electric water heater.
I am paying around 10 to 12 cents per KWH if I devided the bill correctly a few months back.
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I'm afraid that depends completely on where you live. In areas with shortages of groundwater, a pump tax is usually applied to any well in the area.
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Did not know that was going on in parts of the country.
Seems there is going to be a way to tax everything. I have heard that the states want to put a road tax on the electric cars where you paid a tax for the number of miles driven. That is to make up for the tax lost on gas for roads.
I have not checked on it, but have heard there is a rain tax. That is if you have say a parking lot where the rain can not go into the gound but out to the storm drains you get taxed for that.
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On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 12:01:47 -0500, Arthur Conan Doyle

With a well?

I agree natural gas piped in is usually cheaper than electricity but that is certainly not true of propane here. Propane is expensive ($2.50 to over $4 a gallon and fairly volatile pricing). Electric has been pretty steady at ~11 cents a KWH bottom line. Electricity is also virtually 100% efficient instead of sending a lot of heat up the flue.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com writes:

Modern gas-fired high-efficiency furnaces run at 98%, the minimum is 78%.
And USD0.11 KWH may be true where you live, but it's hardly universal.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com says...

For heat pumps you can say that electricity is more than 100% efficient.
The heat transfered from the outside is more than the heat produced by electricity if used as resistance heating.
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On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 3:06:00 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:

The Heat pump heating effect is supplanted with big thick nichrome coils, 240VAC and HIGH WATT! That air WILL get hot!
John Kuthe...
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True. However, heat pumps are decidedly more expensive than conventional furnaces to install and maintain, so that does need to be considered.
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On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:05:44 -0500, Arthur Conan Doyle

If you live in a place where heat pumps actually work, you probably have an A/C anyway. The incremental cost for the reversing valve is minimal.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

For air based heat pumps, true. Those tend to be found in areas where winters aren't particularly cold. Unfortunately, when temps drop below freezing, they revert to resistence heating.
I have relatives with a geothermal system. Definitely works year round, but much more expensive to install. It also had to be replaced after 10 years, which wasn't cheap.
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wrote:

There's more involved than just a reversing valve.
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On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:22:51 +1000, "Rod Speed"

But the incremental cost on the line is minimal. Just because of the economy of scale most small HVAC systems might be heat pump by default and it is the special order to delete it. It is getting that way with mini splits here now.
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wrote:

It isnt just the line, it's the other stuff too, and the cost isnt minimal.

That's bullshit too.

Bullshit it is. And they arent the low end of HVAC anyway.
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On Thursday, August 22, 2019 at 2:30:04 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

You're correct, of course. Just to verify it, I just looked at the cost of the eqpt for 3 ton Goodman AC 14 Seer and 3 ton Goodman Heatpump. Both about $2300 within a hundred bucks of each other, which is nothing since with installation around here you'd be looking at about 3.5X that total from the contractor for replacement, a lot more for the whole thing, ie ducts, for a new home. Heat pumps have gotten more efficient in recent years too. The problem is the capacity. 3 tons is 36K BTU, which is what a tiny gas furnace would be, if they even make them that small. Even a 5 ton system is just 60K, my gas furnace is twice that. So, the problem becomes sizing them for colder climates. I guess it takes geothermal to get enough output, not sure how much even those have. I know is you don't see heatpump systems of any kind being installed here in the NYC area, where it's not especially cold, unless it's some tree hugger doing it outside the norm, cost be damned.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net says...

Heat pumps that work out in the air are very good in the areas where I live. It seldom gets or stays very cold, say below 10 deg F. The heat pumps work very well to about 25 or 30 deg F outside air temp. In a way they are over 100% efficient as they put out more heat by transferring it than just electricity would provide in say baseboard heat.
Around 20 deg F or lower the efficiency drops off and the electric heat coils or 'emergency' heat comes on. One other thing is that if you constantly turn the heat up and down, more than about 2 or 3 degreese the heating coils come on and waste the money.
In areas where it gets below say 20 deg F and stays that way for long periods of time , the air type heat pumps do not work very well if at all.
A 2 1/2 or 3 ton heat pump will keep a 2000 sqft house warm with no problem if it is insulated well in the area where I live.
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