My electrician is coming Thurs to install an additional 100A subpanel, and

[Rod Speed]

They must have been able to to get the luxury cars. They can't all be drug dealers.

[Rod Speed]

Clearly the half of US taxpayers who pay no income tax arent.

That also enriches the other shareholders.

>

[gfretwell]

You never saw me supporting that, in fact I bet you would have argued with me saying that Obama bailing out derivative holders in 2009 was a good idea.

[gfretwell]

We are blood brothers there. I own a lot of stuff and I don't owe anyone. That is how I retired at 49.

[gfretwell]

But the incremental cost on the line is minimal. Just because of the economy of scale most small HVAC systems might be heat pump by default and it is the special order to delete it. It is getting that way with mini splits here now.

[gfretwell]

They were tapped out, those weren't NEW Benzes but they were still paying for 2 more years on them.

[gfretwell]

Stock holders are scum, just ask Bob. I am not sure where the capital comes without them tho. I guess the fed can just print it.

[Rod Speed]

It isnt just the line, it's the other stuff too, and the cost isnt minimal.

That's bullshit too.

Bullshit it is. And they arent the low end of HVAC anyway.

[Rod Speed]

Don’t believe that.

Don’t buy that either with all of them.

[Rod Speed]

Borrowed and bonds.

That isnt what happens with corps.

[devnull]

Pretty hard to give a welfare democrat a tax break when they don't pay taxes anyway.

[Bob Eff]

They didn't know about the free ObamaAir program?

[Cindy Hamilton]

How many cords do you use each year?

Cindy Hamilton

[Ralph Mowery]

Many people like to impress. They get in over their heads. Several reasons on the house. At one time in the late 1970's the home loans were about 8 % many were talked into the variatable rate ones. They went way up more than the wages did. Not sure where they topped out at, maybe 12 or more percent. That makes the payments way more.

Some were talked into buying houses that were way more than they could really afford.

All this left very little money for other things. If the loan officers of things like the AC checked the bills and income, many could not afford more loans. Not checking the income vers the bills was one thing that made the housing market fail.

[trader_4]

You're correct, of course. Just to verify it, I just looked at the cost of the eqpt for 3 ton Goodman AC 14 Seer and 3 ton Goodman Heatpump. Both about $2300 within a hundred bucks of each other, which is nothing since with installation around here you'd be looking at about 3.5X that total from the contractor for replacement, a lot more for the whole thing, ie ducts, for a new home. Heat pumps have gotten more efficient in recent years too. The problem is the capacity. 3 tons is 36K BTU, which is what a tiny gas furnace would be, if they even make them that small. Even a 5 ton system is just 60K, my gas furnace is twice that. So, the problem becomes sizing them for colder climates. I guess it takes geothermal to get enough output, not sure how much even those have. I know is you don't see heatpump systems of any kind being installed here in the NYC area, where it's not especially cold, unless it's some tree hugger doing it outside the norm, cost be damned.

[trader_4]

ROFL. Same thing goes on here. This has to be one of the biggest fool scam things going. Seems just about all pools have a nat gas pool heater sold here. I doubt anyone tells the owners the truth, that even with nat gas, the costs to run a pool heater are crazy. People see a pool heater that's the size of a minifridge and likely think it can't use so much, not like a gas furnace to heat the house, right? Wrong. These things are 300K, 400K Btus for a good size pool, while the furnace for the house is 100K. Then you have the install cost, larger gas service, running the gas pipes. Then they turn it on, get one gas bill and 95% probably never use it again. I suppose it's good for occasional use, like you're kids are having a pool party and you want to heat it up for that.

And up here, you don't see solar being used for pools either. IDK why. You'd think they would offer that as an option that actually can work and be used economically. You would need space for the solar collectors, which would be either the roof or someplace on the ground. There are certainly people here that could be doing it, but I haven't seen one, just the dopey gas pool heaters. Of course if you don't have ground space, then you'd have to choose either solar electric or solar pool for the roof.

Very happy to have NG here. My bills were cut by more than half eight years ago with new 94% furnace.

[Ralph Mowery]

Heat pumps that work out in the air are very good in the areas where I live. It seldom gets or stays very cold, say below 10 deg F. The heat pumps work very well to about 25 or 30 deg F outside air temp. In a way they are over 100% efficient as they put out more heat by transferring it than just electricity would provide in say baseboard heat.

Around 20 deg F or lower the efficiency drops off and the electric heat coils or 'emergency' heat comes on. One other thing is that if you constantly turn the heat up and down, more than about 2 or 3 degreese the heating coils come on and waste the money.

In areas where it gets below say 20 deg F and stays that way for long periods of time , the air type heat pumps do not work very well if at all.

A 2 1/2 or 3 ton heat pump will keep a 2000 sqft house warm with no problem if it is insulated well in the area where I live.

[gfretwell]

Solar really just gets you about 10 degrees over average ambient air. Up there that is not much help. Covering the pool will improve that number some but as soon as you uncover it the temperature falls fast if it is cool out. Heat pumps are probably the best way to heat a pool but again if it is cool out, you can't maintain the temperature without covering the pool.

[gfretwell]

Heat pumps really only work well if it really doesn't get that cold. They are perfect in North Florida. We just use resistance heat here for the 100 hours or so a year that you need heat. My wife is perfectly happy with the 1440w fireplace heater in the living room. We have never turned the heat strips on in our air handler.

[Clare Snyder]

If they are only still paying for 2 more years on them they've had them for at least 3 - andthey are likely 8 years old.(original leesee had them for 5 years)