If brand X comes out better than brand Y in a consumer survey, should I, as a consumer, really care whether that is because X's hardware is better than Y's, or is because X trains their installers better so they don't screw up as often?
Ruud & Rheem are identical replicas by the same mfg'er; Heil & Tempstar are identical replicas by the same mfg'er. Where is the difference? Goodman is bought by lower income individuals that live in homes without proper ductwork & the Return Air filters are allowed to plug, etc. This equipment is usually installed on the fast & cheap with less skilled installer & Techs.
You can not flat out compare their survey of repair frequencies to the quality of the equipment without entering the other critical factors!
So, why is Lennox a high dollar top line brand so low? The Lennox equipment should be in the higher income homes with a better HO maintenance record! That particular survey covers one factor whereas, a dozen or more (things that can be done wrong) factors enter into whether a new high efficiency condenser type gas furnace will require more frequent repairs.
I will take a Goodman, Amana or a Tempstar/Heil & not be the least concerned about their quality! Additionally, you can do a lot of repairing of the small stuff for the price differential on the lower initial cost equipment. Do NOT be fooled by surveys that ignore the critical causative factors for the repair frequencies!
- udarrell
I agreed up until this comment...
Manufactures could really care less if you're trained properly or not.
It comes down to the dealer... do they care? Do they want to maintain a high level of comfort and product reliability?
You can get good installers' & techs with the other lower cost brands, you just have to shop around for them, as you should when buying the highest cost brands. You will find good & bad selling various brands, you need enough knowledge savvy to sort out the bad ones!
Lennox is supposed to have top quality installs & techs, why is their brand rated so low? Come on, answer the question! "None of the other Brand Makes that kjpro listed" were not in the survey, or none of them made the Top Twelve? Kjpro is right, that survey was meaningless misleading BS. I do NOT sell any Brand of equipment I am retired and impartial! - udarrell
The graph was pretty linear, until it hit Goodman. Up till then, the repair frequency (for the first 11) ranged from about 15% to just over 20%. Goodman came in around 26%.
So a professional who owns a piece of equipment, knows better than any other homeowner how much *trouble* he's had with his equipment?
Wow, that's the dumbest thing you've said yet.
Again, it DOESN'T MATTER for the purposes of the survey. Someone else pointed this out to you as well. The chances of getting a good or bad install are EQUAL for every brand.
The fact that every known brand isn't represented on the survey is immaterial. Surveys seldom cover _every_ brand.
Put simply, the survey allows you to gauge the ones that ARE listed. You can plainly see which brand OF THE ONES THAT ARE LISTED, has a better service record.
While the ones you mention might place higher than the ones listed, they might also place lower.
The point remains, if given the ones THAT ARE IN THE SURVEY to chose from, you can readily see how they average out in repair frequency, OF THE ONES THAT ARE IN THE SURVEY.
See above.
Why are Goodman so much cheaper? You don't believe this economy of purchase isn't reflected in the quality whatsoever? The money has to come off something. They're in business to make maximum profits, after all.
And it's doubtful that the lower income individuals you mention, are going to be readers of Consumers Reports.
Maybe as kjpro pointed out, the higher end models have more bells/whistles, therefore requiring more repairs?
Undoubtedly, but for a homeowner, wanting to find out what the average reliability ratings are, it's a start.
This is why I tried a while back to get some honest answers from the HVAC experts in Usenet, as to what they preferred. I would expect that if you were to be totally honest, that you would probably have a brand preference, if you were installing it in your own home, and probably a brand or 2 that you absolutely wouldn't install in your own home.
OK, I'm asking: which ones are good, and which ones are bad?
It's a rhetorical question. I doubt that you'll answer it.
Hey Dipshit, you ever stop to think that I'm using my customer base and reported problems for data. You know, like how many in/out of warranty problems are reported, how many problem calls I receive on equipment installed by other, etc...
Who would have thought... you really need to stop posting, you're now looking like a complete idiot.
Not for any given area... you're really grasping for facts here...
Please explain why the SAME identical equipment didn't rate the same?????? You think it might be because of installation issues??????
Bullshit... it's a complete marketing tool that means absolutely NOTHING!!!!!!!
The fact that you don't know and I do, kinda makes me the authority on the subject. So I suggest you shut the f*ck up, till you learn about HVAC/R equipment.
Again, tell me why the IDENTICAL equipment (that's in the survey) was rated differently? It's the same equipment, so why are they rated so far apart?
See above, where I tell you I know my industry and you OBVIOUSLY don't. So why don't you shut the f*ck up now?
the
Which again, means nothing!
Goodman isn't the cheapest brand out there. There are many brands that are cheaper! Ever stop to think it might have to do with marketing strategies?
Do you know who's rated number one for HVAC equipment sells???
What's your point?
bells/whistles,
But that makes your thoughts inaccurate.
No, it's a gimmick to get people to purchase a brand based on bullshit results!
Yes, we do... but it's not based on equipment. It's based on "who's going to give me the best service", "who's going to stock parts for this unit", "who's going to go the extra mile when I need them too", "where can I get the parts if this distributor is 'out of stock' and it's an emergency", "who has the better warranty", "who is easy to deal with", "who is going to take care of warranty issues (without hassles)", etc...
You really need a clue, so here ya go...
CLUE
installations?
The ones that are 'good' would be the ones that are properly sized, installed to code and set-up to operate with-in the manufacture's specifications. It will be installed by someone you can count on for repairs and be able to make those repairs in a timely fashion. Installed by someone that can give you competent answers for your questions.
The ones that are 'bad' are normally the ones installed by the lowest bidder (not always). Equipment that is under/oversized that will not only compromise your comfort, but cost you more to operate. Equipment that is installed the quickest and cheapest way. Installed by someone that may or may not return for service issues. Installed by someone with limited knowledge and resources to be able to fix any issues you might have with the equipment. Installed by an installer that doesn't understand what it takes to make the equipment operate with-in the manufacture's specifications. Installed by someone that doesn't make sure the ducting is adequate for the new equipment. Installed by someone that doesn't take care of your personal comfort issues.
Now which brand, does which company offer?
Again, your comprehension fails you. I did not say they were the cheapest. I said they were cheaper. I freely admit that I don't know who is the cheapest.
Number one in what respect? Total sales? Why don't you enlighten me? Seriously.
I think the point is pretty clear.
How so?
Again, for whom? 1) Consumer's Reports is a non-profit organization. 2) It was a survey of 30,000 people. The results are their readers, not CR's. They accept no advertising, nor free samples for testing.
Someone else mentioned that many of the parts are interchangeable among brands, so how is this a problem?
Let's assume for a minute that you can get equal service for any brand. Which would you be first to install? Which would be the last?
Imagine for a minute that the ONLY factors are YOUR experience in which units have shown to be the most problematic, installation issues notwithstanding.
Which would they be?
So why won't you fess up which units give the most trouble? Please don't say they're all exactly the same.
Further, I doubt you have a customer base of 30,000 to report on.
Why don't you just try and answer the questions?
A marketing tool? For who?
Now you're becoming a santimonious asshole. If you can't handle the exchange, killfile me.
Please tell me what two manufacturers on that survey list are exactly identical.
See above.
Was the difference statistically significant? At what level of confidence?
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