I noticed you ignored the reply from poster "yourname".
I'm not arguing you disingenuous shit. YOU were the one who didn't like the results of the survey I posted. I'm simply trying to get you to answer 2 simple questions
One more time: Let me repeat the questions. Hell, I'll even rephrase them for you.
Given *all* other factors are the same, and based on *quality* only, which current brands would you install in your own home? More importantly, which brands would you NOT install in your home.
Seeing as you already indicated some past designs or models that you didn't like, what CURRENT designs or models do you not like? And don't lie and say "I like them all."
Or are you going to pull a Fred Astaire and dance for me again?
Someone asks 2 simple questions. "What make furnace do you own?" "Have you had problems with it?" 30,000 people answer with FACTS. Sheesh. Grab a dictionary and look up "fact."
I didn't like the results????? Never said that... I said the survey was a complete JOKE!!! I could CARE LESS what order they list them in... again, the survey is a complete JOKE!!! As far as your questions, I have answered every single one of them with a competent answer that YOU didn't like. Tough shit!!!
Did you not understand my answer the first time?
Did you not understand my answer the first time? Here let me tell you again, it wouldn't matter which brand was installed in my home! Again, every manufacture has design flaws 'from time to time'. They show up after a few months/years, if we knew in advance that they had design flaws, they wouldn't be producing them, now would they?
I don't dance, I tell it like it is and if you don't like the FACTS, tough shit!!!
Do those same people know if their equipment is installed per code? No Do those same people know if their equipment is properly sized? No Do those same people know if their equipment is installed per the manufacture's instructions? No Do those same people know if their equipment has been set-up properly? No Do those same people know if their equipment has been maintained properly? No Those people had a repair, do they know if the service company serviced the equipment properly the first time? No Do those same people know if first repair cause issues that made the equipment fail a second time? No
Are you starting to see the point? I bet you don't and you never will... as you're to ignorant to see the FACTS!!!
Do you ask your customers if they have any HVAC knowledge before you will render service? Don't be so bloody stupid.
If a person's heating system doesn't work, it doesnt' work. It matters not what the problem is. It's a non-functioning system. More importantly, it gives none of the surveyed systems any advantage in the survey.
You keep trying to ridicule it, and you keep failing.
Hey Dipshit, it doesn't take a genius to pick up the phone and say "hey, my HVAC system failed, can you come out and fix it"? On the other hand, it does take someone with HVAC knowledge to KNOW *why* their equipment failed! There's a difference, I'm sorry you're to ignorant to see it.
Which makes the survey a JOKE!!! They don't know *why* their equipment failed. It most likely was caused by an installation issue vs an equipment design failure. Do you know no anything about the HVAC industry?
Doesn't mean anything, just like the survey... so flush it down the toilet!
Nope, you're just to ignorant to actually comprehend the FACTS!!!
Can you point out how they are inaccurate? If a magazine surveys its readers, and Brand X beats Brand Y by a statistically significant margin, and it is not due to X actually being better, and it is not due to poor installers favoring Y for some reason, then that would have to mean that the readers of the magazine who pick X do a better job of finding good installers, and the ones who pick Y are worse at picking installers.
Why would that be? I suppose if X costs more than Y, then maybe consumers who pick X are more careful when they pick their installers, and get more references and recommendations, whereas the people buying the cheaper brand might also tend to go with the cheapest installer?
Tim, Lennox had a high rate of repairs yet that is high priced equipment with supposed good installers. Were they high cost components or minor low cost components?
By the way, the installers work for the contractor that sells you the equipment, unless it is bought by bypassing the HVAC contractor.
I doubt that you will ever give up your belief in Consumer Reports, however in this case when it comes to heating & also central air conditioning the survey methodology is rather meaningless. I know this from many years of seeing why various components fail, and the majority of the time it is not the equipment's fault.
Learn enough about HVAC so you can pick the right contractor because that will be the main determiner of a lower repair history on the HVAC equipment you buy.
formatting link
formatting link
I care about the uninformed buyers, NOT the hyped up marketer's; I am retired & do NOT sell equipment or install it! Kjpro knows what he is talking about on this particular CR survey issue. - udarrell
Today, they are actually installing the system. The condenser unit (H2RE048S061) is rated for 4 tons and the air handler (AHP60D2CH21A) is rated for 5 tons. Is the tonnage mismatch acceptable? Or should I insisted on a 4 ton air handler also?
The point that keeps going over your swelled head is the fact that their system doesn't work. Period. It doesn't matter WHAT the problem is - the fact is they have NO HEAT. There's just as much chance of a faulty install on furnace A as furnace B. Good systems can be installed by shitty tradesmen, and bad systems can be installled by good techs.
You obviously have no clue as to what a survey is.
Withe regard to surveys, you wouldn't know a fact if it screwed you all night long and made you breakfast in the morning.
Here's the deal... both air handlers are a match for the condensing unit.
ARI # 1259865 is with the 4-ton A/H Data... 11.0 EER 13.85 SEER 46,500 Btu
ARI # 1259870 is with the 5-ton A/H Data... 12.0 EER 14.00 SEER 46,500 Btu
As you see, the 5-ton A/H will operate a little cheaper. But, if you're in a high humidity area, the larger indoor unit can compromise the humidity removal.
The real data you need to look at is the manual J (sensible/latent requirements) and the equipment specifications (sensible/latent ratio). This will tell you which system is the better match for your particular structure. Compare the requirements with the equipment data... this will 'tell the tale'.
Wow, that's one huge sample. Almost as big as the CR one. Bwahaha.
You're obviously out of your element with regard to surveys.
Let me see if I can dumb this down for you.
You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the lower rated furnaces than the higher ones. Doesn't matter if the installers of the lower rated systems are f****ng morons with a toolbox consisting of a hammer and tin snips. Installation is all built-in to the results. If a wide number of installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then STATISTICALLY, you're more likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed more problems for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems are more likely to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is NOTHING you can say that can change that.
These statistics are incontrovertible. Your arguments from incredulity and arguments from authority (look those up), frantic hand waving, and general attempts at obfuscation mean nothing. You can't change the FACTS.
I fully expect you'll come back with more "I know what I'm talking about.", "You don't know as much as me.", "This survey is bullshit." remarks and other egotistical chest thumping. All of them utterly meaningless in the context of this survey.
Please tell me why the Tempstar is #11 while Heil is #7
Tell me again how these two brands are different...
Which are inaccurate... but you don't care, Trane was towards the top and that's all that matters to you.
You didn't understand my example...did ya? It's ok to say no... as I already know you didn't.
If you call bullshit FACTS, then by all means, more power to ya. But, if you want true results, you better wise up and re-read this thread over and *try* to comprehend it.
If you want to believe a bullshit survey, then more power to ya. But, if you want to portray it as an asset, then it shows you for the idiot that you are.
You can drill it all you want, but a true professional knows BULLSHIT when they see it!!!
We are talking about the context of the factors NOT associated with equipment brands' that cause equipment failures which those surveys' leave out! They and the reader's of their survey are associating every failure to the equipment. That is an example of a misleading survey.
Surveys are mere samplings & in respect to Air conditioning equipment those samplings do NOT indicate the quality of the equipment, therefore, other factors enter into a higher rate of failure for those particular brands in any particular survey.
When you learn how to qualify the installers & techs "you will be enabled to install the equipment with 'the best overall payback' over the number of years you decide to keep it." Those factors are far too involved to include in a survey!
Who knows equipment better than those who have serviced most brands & worked on them for many decades. That survey does NOT tell us squat concerning the actual quality & longevity of the equipment. It is a mere statistical survey, in another area of the country with different owners the picture could change considerably & even then, it is rather meaningless.
You have NO idea how numerous the factors are that result in premature repairs! I subscribe to CR but take some of the surveys with a grain of salt. Survey stats can be way off base; you are welcome to believe what you want to believe. My choice of HVAC equipment, its performance & payback will NOT be based on any CR survey.
Evidently, since you're too f****ng stupid to understand.
No idea. Ask the 30,000+ people across the country who replied to the survey.
Arguing with the results. Pointless and pathetic.
I understand you have no idea what a significant sample size is.
Just as I said: more self-centered chest thumping.
At the end if the day, I'll take the results of 36,181 owners of the equipment, to an outsized-ego of an installer with a vested interest in installing whatever he can get the maximum profit on.
Do you not know how to make them numbers larger? I made them larger to fit your bullshit report (look above). Don't you feel pretty ignorant yet?
You better start looking in the mirror. You're about to be made into the biggest idiot that ever hit alt.home.repair (this includes Stormin Moron) and that's saying something!
You have no idea, because it's the SAME FUCKING EQUIPMENT!!!!!!! Same parts, same manufacturing plant, same employees, everything is the f****ng same!!!!!!
So tell me how does 2 not equal 2?????????
As is arguing with a complete incompetent idiot!!!!!
I understand that you can't take my example and change the numbers, so I have done it for you!
Hey Dipshit, I'm not here to sell anything to anyone. Get that? You don't even know who the f*ck I am or what the f*ck I do for a living. You know absolutely nothing about me... just like that bullshit report shows/tells you nothing about which brand is better than the other.
Ask yourself these questions...
How old was each furnace? Was they the 'top of the line' or 'bottom of the line' equipment? Was each system maintained the same? Was each one installed properly? Do people have different ideas/standards of rating equipment? Did everybody on the survey understand each question and comprehend it the same? Did everybody on that survey get top quality service from their service provider?
Why did it only contain a few brands if it was so significant? Why is the same equipment rated differently?
Your survey is CRAP, complete BULLSHIT and will continue to be BULLSHIT.
You know very little about the HVAC/R industry, but you portray yourself as an expert. And the only thing you're an expert on is posting complete idiotic statements based on somebody else's survey. Unlike myself, I know this field, I have my own results and FACTS that you can't understand.
If you want to continue to be an ignorant jerk, be my guest. But you will be called on your bullshit if I read it.
It must really suck to not know anything! Have you looked in the mirror yet?
Sure. You need a larger sample set. It's the ONLY way. You can't make the numbers "bigger" without surveying MORE PEOPLE.
Don't you feel pretty stupid yet?
More hand waving. LOL.
IT DOESN'T MATTER in the context of the survey, idiot.
You're the one who can't parse the data.
You must be twins. No one person could be so f****ng stupid as to make that comment. You can't "change" the numbers.
I don't know what you do for a living? You clown, you've already said what you do for a living. You're an HVAC God. You've repeated it ad nauseam. Sadly, that doesn't mean you have any comprehension skills.
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.