Battery Derangement

Stolen from another newsgroup

For those who think that EV's will "save" the "environment":

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Battery Derangement

Electric vehicles won’t save the planet and won’t survive without subsidies.

Mark P. Mills October 10, 2019

"Electric vehicles stand at the center of every “green energy” initiative. Multiple jurisdictions mandate and subsidize the inevitable transition to “clean” transportation. Some policymakers have gone further, setting deadlines for outright bans on the internal-combustion engine (ICE), and Green pundits regularly issue forecasts promising the imminent dominance of electric vehicles (EVs).

The EV is central to the notion that we’re on the cusp of a grand shift to a “new-energy economy.” In addition to its putative environmental benefits, the EV, we’re told, is a better machine than an ICE. It’s easier to manufacture, uses less labor, and will—eventually—cost less. Since consumers will soon demand an all-EV future, we should embrace policies to accelerate the transition.

Rarely have so many claims about a product been so wrong. The only unequivocal fact in the EV narrative is that more EVs exist today—approximately 4 million—than ever before. Lithium-battery chemistry—the inventors of which received the 2019 chemistry Nobel Prize—along with advances in power electronics, has made it possible to build practical, if expensive, electric cars. But everything else in the popularized EV storyline is deeply misguided. Advocates claim that EVs are far simpler machines than combustion engines. But the essential “engine” for both is similarly complicated. While the EV’s electric motor is simple, its battery is a half-a-ton electrochemical machine with thousands of parts and welds, along with wiring, electronics, and cooling. It’s every bit as complex as—and far more expensive than—the combustion-mechanical drivetrain that it replaces.

Manufacturing automotive batteries is surprisingly labor intensive. Tesla’s gargantuan battery factory in Nevada produces about 1,000 propulsion batteries per year per 12 workers. Meantime, a modern engine and transmission factory produces about 1,000 mechanical-propulsion systems per year per four workers. EVs don’t reduce total labor requirements; they simply outsource American labor. Since most automakers aren’t capable of fabricating batteries, EV-battery jobs reside mostly in Asia. China alone produces 60 percent of the world’s lithium batteries. There’s no prospect of creating a domestic EV supply chain anytime soon, regardless of incentives.

To EV enthusiasts, U.S. job losses are beside the point because ending our reliance on fossil fuels and saving the planet takes precedence. But it requires the energy equivalent of about 100 barrels of oil to fabricate one battery capable of storing the energy contained in a single barrel of oil. Importing batteries manufactured on Asia’s coal-heavy grid means that consumers are just exporting carbon-dioxide emissions, along with jobs. It takes years to offset those emissions when the EV is plugged into our real-world power grid, where coal and natural gas still account for 70 percent of electricity generation.

Then there’s the array of primary minerals—lithium, cobalt, manganese, carbon, nickel, copper, aluminum—needed to produce a 1,000-pound automotive battery. Accessing the necessary minerals for that one battery entails mining, moving, and processing some 500,000 pounds of raw materials. Embracing batteries at automotive scales would lead to an unprecedented global expansion in mining, with all the accompanying negative environmental effects that tend not to be palliated in developing countries.

None of this seems to concern China, which boasts 60 percent of global EV sales. There, the EV supply chain’s labor intensity is a feature, not a bug. After all, Western nations have largely given up on the related manufacturing, as well as materials-mining and chemical-refining industries. China has spent $60 billion cumulatively in domestic subsidies in order to become the dominant global player, but it ended the EV gravy train this year, cutting subsidies by 65 percent, with plans to eliminate them entirely next year. The result? China’s vaunted EV sales growth went negative. Having abandoned direct subsidies, China will now simply require that EVs make up 3 to 4 percent of all domestic car production. Policymakers in democracies and autocracies find mandates appealing because they are a de facto hidden tax wherein industries, rather than government, get blamed for resulting higher costs.

Mandates and bans can enhance EV sales for as long as markets and consumers tolerate them. But that approach makes a lie of claims that “EV sales are accelerating.” Capitulating to a mandate, much less one set to a mere 4 percent, means that we’re miles away from seeing a new-energy transportation system. Sales data show what consumers actually want. Light trucks—SUVs and pickups—make up 70 percent of all vehicle sales in America. This trend accelerated after the Great Recession, during a period of supposedly rising “climate awareness” and the emergence of the millennial car buyer. There isn’t a battery option for SUVs at a price that consumers, rather than governments, will pay. The few successful EV-SUVs are strictly for the 1 percent crowd.

In reality, 96 percent of America’s consumer vehicles are gasoline-fueled ICEs, and 3 percent have the diesel option, the latter outselling electrics. The ratios are similar globally. Odds are the EV option will eventually do far better than the venerable diesel, but the jury is out on how much better. And arithmetic reveals that even a

100-fold growth in EVs wouldn’t displace 10 percent of world oil.

In one of history’s ironies, the Tesla Model S was introduced in 2012, exactly 100 years after Studebaker ended production of its lineup of electric cars. Back then, EVs had dominated car sales for nearly 25 years. It’s taken one century since then to invent a useful battery. But an EV is still a car with the same features consumers focus on when making buying decisions: body style, paint, seats, cup-holders, cool touchscreens, and so on. Changing a car’s fuel source is about as revolutionary as changing the feed for a horse.

Choosing a battery over an ICE isn’t a revolution. It’s an option—an expensive one—that reduces neither total labor nor environmental impacts..."

Mark P. Mills, a Manhattan Institute Senior Fellow, is author of the just-released The New Energy Economy: An Exercise In Magical Thinking.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski
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I read an article by the owner of a Leaf. He was extolling the virtues of the longer range on the new model. On a long trip they made three 30 minute stops to recharge. At one stop though, a Tesla was plugged in and the owner not around. They waited 90 minutes to get to use the charger. By the time they started, two others topped and had to wait.

For a major shift to electric there are major chamges needed for charging. Not a bid deal for a single home, much more complex in an apartment complex.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

The newer superchargers allegedly can charge up a Tesla in I think like an hour and a half, 150Kw rate. There is only one of those that I know of here in the area, at a outlet mall. If you're on a trip making those stops, that's a factor, where there is a fast charger, what, if anything you can do while you're waiting. At the very least, it reduces your choices of where to eat if you want to do that while it's charging.

Yes, like those 150KW super chargers. Fine if only a couple cars stop by, but if it was like you see at a gas station, good luck with that. The infrastructure isn't there to support it, would have to be greatly beefed up. And they say solar can be used, but typical home roof size solar array is ~6 Kw, not 150, and it takes 150 to fast charge just one car. That's 25 home roof size solars per car that's charging.

Reply to
trader_4

And the huge amounts of additional electricity that will be required to keep them charged up will be pollution-free and cost-effectively generated, transmitted and distributed by whom- the Energizer Bunny...or maybe the Duracell Fairy?

Reply to
Wade Gattett

150 kw? 625a @ 240v? I don't think so. 15kw maybe.

Even with that, most homes would need a service upgrade to install an

80a circuit. Most don't even have 30 or 40a to spare if you actually do the load calculations. Builders simply do not put in that much excess capacity.

The idea that we are charging these cars with solar is silly too. At the time of day when the sun is shining, these cars are usually on the road. The idea that any business would have enough solar capacity to charge a parking lot full of cars is silly too. You are left with the blue state idea that they will subsidize car charging at night, from grid power, at the expense of the rest of the customers. Like most of these schemes, it is welfare for the rich.

Reply to
gfretwell

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According to Wikipedia,

"A Tesla Supercharger is a 480-volt DC fast-charging station built by American vehicle manufacturer Tesla Inc. for their all-electric cars. ... Tesla supercharging stations charge with up to 150 kW of power distributed between two cars with a maximum of 150 kW per car, depending on version. ... The charging stations provide high-power direct-current (DC) charging power directly to the battery, bypassing the internal charging power supply. The next version of Supercharging was expected to charge with more than 350 kW."

I have no idea whether is accurate or not...

But those won't be in any single residence garage any time soon...nor even complexes I'll wager.

And, of course, when between say Provo and Carson City, one might have "issues"...

Reply to
dpb

There are superchargers . They charge in 30 minutes.

Tesla Supercharger Each Supercharger stall has a connector to supply electrical power at up to 72‒250 kW via a direct current connection to the 400-volt car battery pack. ... Tesla supercharging stations charge with up to 150 kW of power distributed between two cars with a maximum of 150 kW per car, depending on version.

This is for a home charger for 8 hours.

Charge your battery from zero to 80 percent (or more) in eight hours. Charging speeds over six times faster than a Mobile Connector Bundle with NEMA 5-15 adapter (standard charging equipment included with vehicle purchase)

11.5 kW max power – 50 percent greater max kW output than the fastest Mobile Connector/adapter pairing
Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

Actually, the idea is to 'save' excess generated solar and wind power using various means (battery banks, molten sodium, storage reservoirs, etc.) and feed that back into the grid at night. Add in new nuclear baseload generation and it does tend to work out. Over time, as the motive fleet transitions from fossil fuels to electric.

Note also that there are lithium anode technologies on the horizen that will double the energy density (per unit weight _and_ volume) over existing battery packs[*]; 900 mile range isn't more than a few years out.

[*] And reduce fire danger by preventing dendrite formation (either via new electrolye formulations or using nanoscale lithium anodes).
Reply to
Scott Lurndal

Yikes. Even at 480v you are still talking about a 400a service. I suppose if this is 480 delta it would be 300a service. That is serious industrial type equipment, not something you get in a home.

Reply to
gfretwell

I thought hybrids made a little sense as the gasoline engine would run at maximum efficiency but interesting reading in Consumer Reports about a Subaru Crosstrek hybrid that gave only 4 mpg over the conventional version. Price differentials even with the subsidy had Consumer Reports conclude that it was not worth it.

Reply to
invalid unparseable

That is gibberish. They make it sound like your 1440w NEMA 1-15 magically comes up with 11.5KW (a 240v, 60a circuit). Again, I needed a service upgrade to put a spa that size in my house and even with the 200a FPL would give me, I still had to play games with the load calc, using the "optional" method to get there. The next step would have been the nominal 400a (actually 320a) service. That was a big ticket item.

Reply to
gfretwell

"Saving" that energy has been the holy grail and always "just a few years away" since the Carter administration and most of them bring us right back to the points made at the top of this thread. There ain't no free lunch. Right now these schemes are still welfare for the rich and will be until they either means test the subsidy or they start taxing it like they do other energy, neither are being done now. It leaves those who don't have an extra 50 grand laying around paying for those who do.

Reply to
gfretwell

Actually, I see it used to be 150KW, now it's been upped to 250-400KW. AFAIK, the one near here is 150 and I suspect the higher output ones are few at this point.

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A Tesla Supercharger is a 480-volt DC fast-charging station built by American vehicle manufacturer Tesla Inc. for their all-electric cars. The Tesla Supercharger network of fast-charging stations was introduced beginning in 2012. As of September 2019 the electric vehicle network consisted of 14,081 individual Supercharger stalls at 1,604 locations worldwide.[1] Tesla Model S was the first car to be able to use the network, followed by the Tesla Model X and Tesla Model 3. Europe/Worldwide Tesla Supercharger with dual cables: Type 2 for Model S/X and CCS Combo 2 for Model 3 Tesla Supercharger outlets in Europe/Worldwide (left) and North America only (right).

Each Supercharger stall has a connector to supply electrical power at up to 72‒250 kW via a direct current connection to the 400-volt car battery pack.[2] Originally the Superchargers could deliver up to 120 kW of power per car (depending on circumstances), but this has been raised with the latest versions of the Supercharger.

Agree, but these are not at homes, at least not the typical home. Like I said, the one here is at an outlet shopping mall. And we were talking about recharging will taking long trips, ie someplace that's outfitted to do it fast.

There are still a whole lot of cars to work with, all the cars that are used for commuting to work for example.

The idea that any business would have enough solar capacity to

I agree with that and said so, pointing out that they typical home solar size array puts out about 6KW or so, while it takes that 150KW capacity to charge a car completely in an hour and half or so. But that's to charge it completely. If you use it for commuting 30 miles to work, it could easily replace that and more with even a smaller array.

Reply to
trader_4

I will not be making that transition, regardless of whether vaporware "super batteries" manage to materialize.

Reply to
Roger Blake

When I checked maybe 6 months ago, there was one Supercharger near me, at an outlet mall. I've seen it from a distance, never looked at it closely, but clearly it's capable of doing maybe 8 cars at a time and I'd suspect that maybe only a couple or so are Superchargers. There were quite a few other places with more modest chargers. one thing that stood out was how many on the map were at car dealers. :) Others were at some schools, govt buildings, etc. Great if you happen to work there. I visit the train or bus commuter lots here that people use to commute to NYC occasionally and I have yet to notice one of those that has a charger of any kind. With these chargers, they put in some in at a school, building, mall, that can handle a small number of cars, maybe a couple percent of the cars that the lot could hold. It will take some infrastructure or solar or a nuke or something to charge even a third of the cars. I remember seeing a comparison of the power of gasoline, working the energy content of the gas and the short time it takes to pump X gallons of it into the power. It was measured in megawatts. And then you can look at the storage space required, ie the tank and how many Mwh of energy a gas station can hold. It's quite impressive.

Reply to
trader_4

This thing will use as much power as the whole mall, probably more. A

1500 KVA transformer is a cube about 7 feet on a side with a medium voltage input. That is about what the PoCo allots for 80-85 houses.
Reply to
gfretwell

I stumbled across a station at the Casey Jones museum in Jackson, TN. There were several stanchions. I guess you plug the car in and do something with a cellphone app. Nobody was there at the time.

There must be something like a Trucker's Atlas that tells you where to find plugs rather than diesel.

Reply to
rbowman

Tesla can even help with trip planning and charging stations.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

Why bother? Gas stations are almost everywhere, no planning required.

Reply to
Roger Blake

A friend was telling me this AM that he was at a meeting last night and an old guy told him they had bought an electric car to save the environment, blah, blah, blah and now his electric bill was $100 higher each month. Wonder what he paid for gas on his previous vehicle. This old guy would have to drive about 1,300 miles/month to pay that much for gas.

Reply to
invalid unparseable

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