Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com actually said:

I agree that attaching a flat plate to the wheel itself is a jig that would be useful.
I think the mirror and laser pointer are to get this triangle?
http://i.cubeupload.com/ZmdfeN.gif
Is that the right triangle?
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amdx actually said:

Now that I've done some more research, I have a better handle on 'toe' so I'm going to agree with you that getting toe precise to 2 minutes isn't all that important, in all likelihood.
For *setting* toe, especially in the rear, it could easily be that 0 toe (degrees or inches) would be just fine, or, maybe, to take up some suspension slop, a "smidgeon" of toe (maybe 1/16th of an inch or less in linear dimension no matter what the wheel/tire diameter).
This is to take up the slop in the suspension (perhaps slightly more in the front if it's a typical RWD like all my vehicles are).

I'm still confused how to convert toe from degrees to inches, but luckily, there are web sites that will do it for us. https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeInchesToDegrees.htm

Interesting you mention that, because the reason for the *far away* wall is simply that the angle is small, right?

If you are talking about toe, I'm no expert, but the way I understand it is that you lock the steering wheel in the center position first (which has nothing, per se, to do with alignment but with esthetics) - and then - you pick a side, and twist a tie-rod ever so slightly - which - depending on the direction of twist, moves the front of the wheel in toward the centerline of the vehicle - or outward.
So it's one wheel at a time, measured to the centerline. Of course, you can assume all sorts of symmetries and do both wheels at the same time, but conceptually I think of toe as a wheel-to-centerline thing, to be done one at a time.

That's an interesting observation that the measurement problem is more difficult, but I think only if we try to measure degrees of toe.
If we measure inches of toe, the measurement problem is conceptually trivially simple.

I'm trying to find the triangle in the equation of toe in order to figure out how to convert the distance measurement to an angle.
Here I just drew what is my first pass guess at where that triangle lies:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ZmdfeN.gif
Is *this* the trigonometric angle everyone is talking about?

You make a good point here in that we really have a 3-dimensional X, Y, and Z axis, each of which is rotated by 90 degrees (caster, camber, and toe).

Just to ask to get me more firmly grounded, is *this* the triangle everyone is talking about?
http://i.cubeupload.com/ZmdfeN.gif
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca posted for all of us...

+5 and high school math... He could go back to school and learn all this for less bux than he wasted-not to mention our time.
Drive it to the BMW shop and tell them you want it set to the preferred settings. Make certain all your bushings and arms and their esoterically named crap is brand new because as it wears it will change. Don't hit any curbs, potholes, driveways, obstructions of any sort, or drive it period. Better get new springs too as they will sag and take everything out of the trunk. If it's a convertible weld some stiffeners along the top. Have your partner and you control their weight. Fill up with gas first. Get all pebbles, stones and other safarcus out of the treads. Make certain the tire pressure is within a 10/th of a pound. I am sure I am forgetting something...
--
Tekkie

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wrote:

I too am starting to wonder if this guy is nuts, or maybe just a troll. There is some very simple math involved here.
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could be both.

and some common sense.
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Bill Vanek actually said:

Hi Bill,
If you can answer this question then it will show that you actually understand what you call *simple math*.
Here is the question:
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10_total_toe_angles.gif
Summarized, that says: If total toe is the difference in toe between the rear and front of the tire, and if the difference in angles between the rear and the front of the tire are exactly the same (by definition, since the angle of the wheel/tire combination to the centerline of the car is the same no matter what size the wheel/tire combination is!), then how the heck can total toe be specified in degrees?
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On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:37:01 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon

I replied to your original question days ago, and you ignored that reply. Regardless of that, your questions have been answered repeatedly. Toe *is* an angle, but if you know the outside diameter of the tire, it can also be spec'd in inches, or any other linear measure. The conversion involves only the measure of sides of a triangle, which is really basic math. This is my original reply:
Inches depends on the outside diameter of the tire: https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeDegreesToInches.htm
Minutes to degrees can be found here: http://zonalandeducation.com/mmts/trigonometryRealms/degMinSec/degMinSec.htm
Regarding the needed accuracy, it depends on exactly what you are trying to achieve. There is a wide range in camber that will not cause any meaningful tire wear. Toe is much more critical, including for overall feel at higher speeds, but you are also dealing with runout, and there really isn't any good way to adjust for that at home.
The overall point is that even if you are off with the camber, the tires are not going to be worn out all that much earlier, so close can be good enough, especially if you bother with rotation. Toe is much more important, and if you want that exactly right, pay someone to do it right. You can get it close at home, but it's just luck if it's exactly right.
You also have to keep in mind that a rear drive car's toe out will increase with speed, and a front drive car will do the opposite. There is plenty of slop in steering & suspension, and you will get varied readings, especially if you are not using turntables. Sometimes trying to save money is not such a good idea.
At the same time, finding someone to do the job right can be a challenge, too. There's plenty of hacks out there.
If all you care about is getting things close enough that there won't be ridiculously excessive tire wear, then have at it. But if you are trying to get things just right, both for handling and tire wear purposes, pay someone.
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Bill Vanek actually said:

I had/have no problem with the trigonometry, since it's simple soh cah toa stuff, these triangles.
My main problem is where was the triangle.
It seems to me that, if toe is specified in inches, then the triangle should be specified at some known point off from the center of the wheel to the centerline of the car.
If they specify toe at any other point than a known point off from the center of the wheel, then they have to specify how far they are from that known point for any inches-to-degrees conversion to apply.
Isn't that right?

I completely understand that measuring inches from the tire tread to the centerline of the car and then using that as the "opposite" in the trigonometric soh cah toa, will come up with the wrong angle which will be more and more wrong the further the measurement is taken from the center point of the wheel.
When they specify toe in inches, why don't they just specify it from the rim of the wheel (instead of from the tread of the tires?)

I can convert with basic sohcahtoa trig but I need to visualize the triangles first.

I have learned a lot about this accuracy problem since I opened this thread, which I can summarize as no basic home tool will get the accuracy specified by BMW (which is 1 minute for camber).
However, you really don't *need* that accuracy (which is what you are saying).
An inclinometer will get us to about 1/10th of a degree (six minutes) of accuracy as stated on thisadvertising blurb: http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-in-digital-lasertrac-reg-level/p-00948292000P
A typical smartphone apparently uses either a gyro or a magnetic compass and accelerometer, which can't get to the same accuracy (it seems) as an inclinometer can (or so I'm told).
However, in the end, a "smidge" of negative camber (about a degree or so) is probably in the accuracy range we really need, which a smartphone can do.

Static toe is actually easier to measure and harder to measure than camber, it seems.
It's easier because it's easy to measure distances and then convert those distances to degrees using basic sohcahtoa trig.
It's harder because you can't easily measure degrees of toe with a typical inclinometer level or smartphone gyro/compass/accelerometer because they're based on gravity which is in a different plane for measuring camber angles as it is for measuring toe angles.

BMW does not recommend ever rotating tires, but they don't care about tire wear. The camber is only adjustable in the rear and it's pretty high (I forget but it's at least 2 degrees negative camber for each rear wheel). That wears out the inner edge like you can't believe.
Me? I'm ok with zero camber but that can't be obtained (the last alignment proved that). But I think 1.5 or 1 degrees was what the guy was able to get me.
So, for me, the camber setting would be to simply put it at the lowest it will go (least negative) for the bimmer but for the toyota I have a wider range (where only the front camber can be set because the toyota has a solid rear axle so nothing is settable).
As for wear, it seem everything goes in this direction: 1. caster 2. camber 3. toe
In that caster is done first, then camber, and then toe, and in that wear is least with caster and then more with camber and then even more with toe (under typical settings).
It's just x y z planar stuff. :)

I have done my toe when I replaced tierod ends, pitman arms, and idler arms, and then when I took the cars for alignment, the toe was spot on.
So I think toe is easy, compared to caster and camber.

I'm an old man who has never had a FWD car and I hope that I die before I ever stoop that low.
So all my questions are for RWD vehicles.

The simple test is to set the alignment at home, and then take it to the shop for double checking. Many shops offer free tests if nothing needs to be changed; but I would hesitate to take them up on that only because they can always find something so I suspect that's just a gimmick.
Has anyone here ever gotten the "free test" actually for free if there was nothing to change? Or do they always find "something"?

Never in my life (and I'm an old man) have I seen a mechanic install a tire correctly (I use Tire Rack authorized installers), so I suspect it's the same with alignment.
For example, I had to bring 500 pounds of my own weights to my last alignment. The alignment guy *knew* how to do it right, he just knew that most of this customers don't have a clue.
It's the same with the tire mounting shops. They *know* how to do it right, but they also know most of their customers don't have a clue so they get lazy.
I doubt a single car tire is installed correctly, by the book, on any car taken to the typical tire shops (wheel works, goodyear, midas, etc.).

I think the summary is this simple.
A. Check the alignment at home for the things that can be adjusted. For my Toyota, that's only caster, camber, and toe in the front, and for my bimmer, that's only camber and toe on the rear and toe on the front.
B. Adjust if necessary (using a smart phone or inclinometer for camber, and a tape measure for toe). I'm not sure how to do caster in the toyota since I only just found out that the caster is adjustable on the toyota.
C. Take it to one of those "free if it's ok" shops, and see what they get for measurements.
If I'm perfect, it's free (I assume); if it needs adjusting, then I learn what can and can't be done.
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On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 01:07:00 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon

The old standard was always about +- 1 degree, when you had no other specs to go by. Enthusiast cars like the BMW have different needs for handling purposes.

That's not uncommon.

That doesn't sound right. 2 degrees should not cause early wear, so you really need to check the ride height. And recheck the camber.

Yes, caster will not cause wear.

That's not the reason for the order, but it's not important.

I hate to say this, but you can get pretty close just eyeballing toe and camber. Especially with camber, if you can't see any substantial lean, the camber is probably close enough that it won't cause tire wear. In a pinch, it works for toe, too.

It's not necessarily a repeatable test, though. The one time you do that, you might have gotten lucky.

They are expected to print out the readings, so it takes some effort to lie. I'm sure they usually find something, but that's only because cars do go out of alignment.

I'm pretty sure that none of the manufacturers expect techs to load a car before alignment anymore. The specs take into account average occupant weights.

And I doubt that it makes the least bit of difference.

You don't really learn that, except for each time you try it. You can get very different results on future attempts.
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Bill Vanek actually said:

I just looked that up for my two cars.
The Toyota spec for the front camber is -.6? to .9? which is exactly in the range you suggested.
The BMW rear camber E39 I6 and 540 models with "standard," "low slung sport" and "M-sport" suspensions spec is apparently -2 deg 10 minutes. The tolerance varies among options: either +/- 20 minutes or +/- 25 minutes of angle.
The M5 spec is -1 deg 50 minutes perhaps due to 275/35 section width tires vs 225/55 for I6 cars.

For the caster on the toyota of 1.7 to 3.2 degrees, I am not yet sure how to measure it for the Toyota but I won't have to bother for the bimmer because caster isn't adjustable.
For the camber of -.6 to .9 degrees for the Toyota, I think I'll use a magnetic base inclinometer such as the Husky 10-inch Home Depot electronic level.
I think I'll just set the toe to 1/16th of an inch less in the front tread (measured as close to centerline of the wheel as possible) than in the back tread to centerline of the vehicle.
That will give me a total toe of 1/8th inch on the Toyota. I'll use toe plates and a tape measure, I think.

True. But it would be free if I got lucky! :)

But if I align it first, it should be within spec, at least for what can be aligned, which is, for the toyota, front caster, camber, and toe, and for the bimmer, rear caster and toe and front toe.

The 500 pound loading on a bimmer is for a different purpose. You are supposed to put 100 pounds on the driver seat, 100 pounds on the passenger front seat, and 200 pounds evenly spaced on the rear bench and 100 pounds in the trunk.
That artificially "lowers" the car to a specific "ride height" which all BMW alignment specs are to.
There is much discussion of why BMW uses that artificial ride height to normalize all their specs, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the "typical" loading of a vehicle with a driver.

I mostly agree with you that when the tire shop torques *all* lug nuts and bolts to the same 100 foot pounds, it probably doesn't hurt anything. Nor if they fill up all tires to the same 40 psi, again, it won't kill anyone (even though BMW specifies different pressure for the front versus the rear).
That they pry off the BBS hubcaps with a screwdriver just breaks the plastic tabs. And that they don't remove all the old weights just makes them put more on each time (and increases the chances of an imbalance from a lost weight).
And that they don't mount the tire with the red or yellow dots to the valve stem or match mounting mark just means they'll use more weight than necessary.
That they don't even torque the bolts in a star pattern probably only makes the wheel slightly crooked.
So, I agree with you that the fact that no tire is ever mounted correctly isn't causing accidents left and right.
But it's still wrong.
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On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 01:07:00 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote:

Yes. That's why they specify toe directly as an angle. HTH. Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

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Tekkie? actually said:

The problem I have is confusion about where the triangles are for toe, and it has absolutely nothing to do with high school math since the trig involved is easy (soh, cah, toa) if we only knew where the triangles are.
For example, total toe is specified in *degrees* of all things.
http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg
Yet, total toe is simply the toe measured at the back of the wheel/tire combination minus the toe measured at the front of the wheel/tire combination, both of which are *linear* measurements.
Since toe angles are the same no matter what size the wheel/tire combination, how can total toe be specified in degrees when it's measured in inches?
Since the tire has the same angle the entire time, there is absolutely no difference in angle between a toe measured at the front of a wheel/tire and a toe measured at the back of that wheel/tire!
So, sure, I'm confused because total toe is specified in degrees. But the confusion has nothing to do with high school trig.
Summarized, if total toe is the difference between toe at the rear of the tire and toe at the front of the tire, yet, the angle of the wheel/tire combination to the centerline of the vehicle is the *same* no matter how large a wheel/tire combination is, then how the heck can total toe be specified in degrees?
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10_total_toe_angles.gif
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On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:34:02 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote:

Silly, it's specified in degrees because it's measured in degrees. HTH.
--
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On 12/8/2016 2:12 PM, John Harmon wrote:

Sort of mixed units.
For a circle with radius about 286.5 feet your circumference will be about 21,600 inches so each minute of arc will be one inch. I don't think that helps you here.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
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AMuzi actually said:

But angles are the units that the manufacturer provides for toe while I'm almost certainly going to measure toe with a distance measurement.
The manufacturer specifies the "total toe" as 0 degrees 14 minutes plus or minus 10 minutes:
http://i.cubeupload.com/RubZhV.gif
The manufacturer specifies a "total toe" required accuracy of plus or minus 2 minutes in a measuring range of plus or minus two degrees with a total measuring range of plus or minus 18 degrees.
http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg
So this confusion is all my fault.
Clearly I'm confused because the way I think of toe is linear, but the manufacturer specifies toe in angles, so I should not have brought up toe in the first place.
Camber is simpler because the manufacturer specifies angles and the measurement is in angles.
So we should stick with camber for this thread (because it's a simpler problem).
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not if you want to do it correctly, you won't.
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nospam actually said:

This article states that you can get as accurate at home as you need to: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/wheels-tires/modp-1010-diy-wheel-alignment/
Here's how they measured toe-in, for example:
http://image.superstreetonline.com/f/30286048+w+h+q80+re0+cr1/modp_1010_06_o%2bdiy_wheel_alignment%2bstring_box.jpg
Notice they measured toe in linear measurements.
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On 10/12/2016 5:17 AM, John Harmon wrote:

You might find these links useful
http://tinyurl.com/jdas8oy http://tinyurl.com/jud2p3b
Note, if you alter camber, toe will alter and you will need to check and adjust if required.
HTH
--

Xeno

First they ignore you,
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Xeno actually said:

That is a nice total-toe-in-inches to degrees calculator, which takes into account wheel size, but I'm still a bit confused how total toe can *ever* be an angle, when the angle at the front of the wheel is exactly the same as the angle at the rear of the wheel?
https://s23.postimg.org/ajrtf269n/10_total_toe_angles.gif
It's not the math (the math is easy); it's the concept of total toe having anything whatsoever to do with degrees when it's merely the difference in toe between the front and rear of the tire when the angle at the front and the rear is (by virtue of straight lines) exactly the same!

In this case of converting toe angle to inches, it's much easier to visualize why single-wheel toe is specified in degrees.
Here's a diagram I made which shows that concept, which I agree is very simple trig (soh cah toa):
https://s18.postimg.org/fq07txfih/11_toe_is_a_triangle.gif

Thanks. It seems that the order is "caster, camber, and then toe", in so much as the two vehicles I have (toyota, bmw) both specify that you adjust in that order.
Caster affects camber which affects toe so that's why you do it in that direction.
Intererstingly, from the standpoing of tire wear in normal settings, the same curve applies which is that caster affects tire wear less than does camber which affects tire wear less than does toe.
So the order to think of the 3D axis are caster, camber, and toe (in that order) for the x, y, and z axis.
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On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 22:49:28 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon

That is not at all what total toe means. 0 degrees of toe for a wheel is when the tire is exactly parallel to the centerline of the car (that is a simplification, but it's usable here). Toe is a measure of the variance in degrees from straight ahead. Total toe is merely they sum of the toe in degrees of both the left and right sides. So if the left is +2 degrees, and the right is -2 degrees, the total toe is 0 degrees. That means minimum tire wear (theoretically), but the steering wheel will be a bit off-center.
The difference between the front and back of the tires is used only for distance measure, not angles.
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