I had an HVAC contractor (salesman) out to my house to quote a minisplit replacement. He's selling Fujitsu.
The current installation has around 8 feet of line between the inside and outside units. He's telling me that the minimum line length has to be at least 15 feet.
I've never heard of a "minimum line length," regarding refrigerant lines (not the capillary, but the gas/liquid lines between cond and evap)
He's telling me that he'll just coil the XS line by the compressor and leave it there.
Now, not only does that not make sense to me, but I know damn well that I've seen all kinds of installations in the city where the compressor hangs on brackets fastened to the outside of the building and the inside unit is just on the other side of a wall with at most a couple of feet of tubing between.
I suspect he is installing precharged units and precharged lines. And the minimum length of a precharged line is 15 feet. This is just a guess, I am not a HVAC contractor.
I suspect he is installing precharged units and precharged lines. And the minimum length of a precharged line is 15 feet. This is just a guess, I am not a HVAC contractor.
Dan
Dan: is right if contractor is to cut line to 8 feet it will need additional work and material you most likely would pay $3-400 more.
And the extra length of tubing, how does that affect performance?
It's out there in the weather and going to be losing a little efficiency to insulation losses. Does it affect lubricant? Is there some special way to coil it so any trapped lube oil gets back to the compressor?
15 feet is the shortest they sell in prepackaged linesets. Jeez// If you had a question why in Hell don't you just call the building service people? They are paid for by your taxes and are there to serve and protect you!
All this fault finding..What is your game? Looking to sue someone? Or What?
Yup he's lying to me alright. He gave me a quote and included running a 30 amp circuit in it which adds ~$1,000 to the cost. I looked up the specs and max power drain is 9 amps and they call for a
20 amp circuit.
Nothing wrong with sizing the wire for 30 but I wouldn't put a 30 amp breaker in the panel, nor would I spend $1K for more efficient wire. Since the power loss is only a few watts and then only when it is starting.
And the extra length of tubing, how does that affect performance?
It's out there in the weather and going to be losing a little efficiency to insulation losses. Does it affect lubricant? Is there some special way to coil it so any trapped lube oil gets back to the compressor?
I think you misunderstood, he don't want lengthier he wanted to be shorter, but either lengthier or shorter labor is involved and material Purging, evacuating and adding correct amount of Refrigerant must be taking in consideration. The line that is supplied by OEM it is 15 minutes hook up that is all. No purging no evacuating no adding Refrigerant just the hook up. Efficiency; if properly done has no effect. Oil is carried by refrigerant flow and not how lines are position. Yes oil can be problem on LOW TEMP. units but on AC it should not have any problems unless it is strait upraise above 10-15 feet and suction line is perhaps 7/8'OD or greater.
Since it seems to bug you so much, why do you even read this newsgroup? Go look at HVAC-Talk or HVAC Pro Forums, for instance, if it suits you better. This place is for folks who want to have civilized conversations. Your primary motive seems to be to stifle education. Maybe go look for hvac work on the freeway?
The way I see it, the inside unit will have moisture in it, and be at atmospheric pressure, so to do it properly, you still have to pull vacuum, leak test, etc..
The only labor saving is that he doesn't have to flare the tubing ends, and for the life of the unit, I'll be stuck with a coil of tubing, insulation losses, and an unsightly mess.
I guess my major gripe is that he's not working with me. He's telling/selling me what I want, not trying to give me what I want.
The pad is there, the disconnect is there, there are already lines/cable in place, and a unit mounted on the wall, and he wants five killobucks to replace it. I'm thinking that is just over one killobuck too many for rural North Carolina. NYC - I could understand it, but here?
The way I see it, the inside unit will have moisture in it, and be at atmospheric pressure, so to do it properly, you still have to pull vacuum, leak test, etc..
NO he dose not need evacuate or pressure test, but yes he should leak check? The lines ,condenser and Evaporator are all Pre-charged with refrigerant in factory.
The only labor saving is that he doesn't have to flare the tubing ends, and for the life of the unit, I'll be stuck with a coil of tubing, insulation losses, and an unsightly mess.
I suspect you are wrong about that. Most just come with a little plastic dust cover on them. To be precharged requires some interesting couplings that prevent the charge from leaking while the parts are screwed together. Much bulkier than a plain old flare fitting that most of them use.
The question is - is the "contractor" quotinf and installing a "package" which is precharged, or a standard kit that is not. Either way he's being lazy.. You could say I was either lazy or cheap when I replaced my unit - I re-used the original line that has an extra 6 feet of line coiled in a loop in the basement - but I brazed the required ends for the new unit onto the existing line - which took some effort. No flares anywhere - all brazed on fittings on all 4 ends.
The question is - is the "contractor" quotinf and installing a "package" which is precharged, or a standard kit that is not. Either way he's being lazy.. You could say I was either lazy or cheap when I replaced my unit - I re-used the original line that has an extra 6 feet of line coiled in a loop in the basement - but I brazed the required ends for the new unit onto the existing line - which took some effort. No flares anywhere - all brazed on fittings on all 4 ends.
I will say to that Good for you that you have knowledge and ability to do it.
Just more proof that you are just a deadbeat sucking on someone else's mode of living. This NG was never meant for HomeMoaners. How much of your vocation do you give away free?
Well, I won't argue with you that you're not a plank, cause I agree that you are one. It is clear you are only here for political reasons: Don't go away mad, just go away...
I suspect the contractor is "lazy." Time is money, and he has a whole office staff to support. There's Frank, the owner, who spends all his day sitting in one place and surfing the net in his office, "Junior" who is the sales guy, but Daddies' own and well paid, Lisa, who answers the phones, and truth be told, probably is their most valued employee.
I got suckered in, because I met one of their very competent worker drones.
From what I'm reading there is No precharged "this and that" when it comes to minisplits. Those are the exceptions. They supply a compressor/condenser/dryer which holds all the charge for the entire system. The contractor is supposed to make the connections to the inside wall mount and lines, which use flare fittings and are at atmospheric pressure, then vacuum pump, and leak test.
They can, and do, fiddle with gauges, and that is impressive to a mark perhaps, but they only use the vacuum gauge.
Then he gives his mighty imprimatur and turns it on. (electrical requires a disconnect and separate sign off)
Most of the third world buys the exact same systems (you see them in movies from the late 80's) and they are installed with no leak test and no vacuum. They just bleed some of the compressor pre-charge through the liquid side for a few seconds to purge the lines, then tighten the fittings and turn it on. If there's any moisture left the dryer is supposed to neutralize it.
Today the compressors are specified (when not intended for pro installations) with sufficient charge to work with n-feet of line, 25' is basic.
I can see where an AC contractor might be necessary for a ducted central system, but they are working a scam when they install minisplits (in my opinion). I got a quote for $5,000 to install a minisplit (I already have the electrical disconnect and pad in place and holes drilled and tubing run - I'm replacing my 7 year old system)
The list price for the parts is ~$2,000 - $1,200 on the net. So the rest is time for installation. Say they send two guys who make $30/hr... and it takes them 8 hours of work, that's $480, and lets say their "benefit package" is another $300 each, that's $1080 for actual installation. and the rest ~$2700+ is to support their overhead - Lisa, Junior, trucks, tools and operating costs.
That isn't unreasonable IMO. But in my Dad's day we worked the phones, and went out on calls. We made money, and did very well when a service call was $10 (to drive the truck to location)
Regulation eats into profit in the AC industry (I get it) but this minisplit thing in the US has just taken over to maintain an unreasonable expectation, or "entitlement" to contractors IMO.
Anyone can buy and use R410A, no license and no special recovery equipment necessary. Gauges (optional) $40, pump (optional) $150, Purge priceless.
I'm in my 70's and would rather pay to get it done, but $5K buys a lot of electricity... I'd rather get someone else to do it but won't pay more than $3,800.
But while somewhat true..There went your warranty. That kind of work was practiced in the 1960's and earlier. Any air in a PAG oil system is claimed to created an acid condition that damages everything.
Some are..Some are not.
Still has to have a Heatload and distribution plan submitted to the Building Service people for approval first on new systems.
I got a quote for $5,000 to install a
Still requires an Electrician for the hook up and Electrical system then has to be brought up to todays codes. That is your Electrical Unions and Building Inspection folks. Might also need a 115V GFI within 25 feet of the Unit.
Nope.. It runs about $140 upward an hour per man..That pays for labor insurance, license, bond, vehicles, office staff, inventory, taxes, uniforms, advertising, warehousing, office space, training etc ...etc...etc...etc
To verify this go to Craftsman National Estimator. These costs can hit #$200/hour in heavy Unionized area's Like New York City and that is before profit.
and it takes them 8 hours of work, that's $480, and lets say
Nope..Gotta have Certification to install R410A and it must be recovered..Or they wouldn't be making recovery units for it. Same business with R134A.Whoa /..My cheapest Gauge set is over $400..My Cheapest Robinair Vacuum Pump is right at $300 and has a limited lifespan in spite of oil change at every evacuation. I have to pay to recycle R410A and R134A. The HCFC's will sometimes be paid for and most of the time has to be burned at my expense.
Looks like you are going to have to get off you 70 year old ass and get to work then.. Maybe My Dad(88) can take some time off here to help you get around?
Why aren't you bugging the HVAC forums etc...Why here...When all you whiners can attribute to this newsgroup is how badly we treated you.
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