OK.. You're 100% correct. I goofed - f'd up - etc.
Checking with the fellow who gave me the dust - Sevin-5%. Being is he is 85 yo and farmed all his life, when he said to toss the stuff, I did as he suggested.
I have written to gardentech.com ( the makers of Sevin-5 ) and am waiting for a reply. I checked with my neighbor who uses the stuff and read the instructions on the back and of course it said to use appropriet dispenser. It also said that the preharvest interval was 7 days for grapes. Looking through
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Q : How does Sevin control insects? A: Sevin has a dual mode-of-action - it works on contact and through ingestion. Sevin is non-systemic, which means it does not penetrate plant tissue - it stays on the outside. After controlling the targeted pest, Sevin is easily broken down in the environment.
I know, I know now - day late an' a buck short... I should have done the necessary reading ahead of time etc. And I should have told Mr Red " Just toss it on - are you crazy ol' man! - do you know how them posters will growl if I don't take all precautions and need advice because I didn't follow instructions and protocol..."
I've used newsgroups in one form or other since DEC-NOTES. I can honestly say that I never did pick apart everything a poster wrote that I found fault with. If I couldn't offer some form of suggestion or help, I move on to the next post. And then I remember the flame wars that started taking place - people who just loved to tear everything apart and find fault. Mispelled words, improper grammar, you name it - not having a damned thing to do with the posters original query. Pre-spam spammers. But it's ok. Take what I need - leave the rest. And I am not referring to your own reply, there was useful input offered. Thank you - it will help in the future - but really did not focus on my query - grapes good or bad now that I f'd up.
I would like to thank all ( even flamers ) for their replies. Too many to reply to all at this point ( persons who had questions ) and things have really gotten totally blown out of proportion.
I have written GardenTech and am waiting their reply. I've been to their site and now I know that the preharvest interval is 7 days for grapes. According to them: Q : How does Sevin control insects? A: Sevin has a dual mode-of-action - it works on contact and through ingestion. Sevin is non-systemic, which means it does not penetrate plant tissue - it stays on the outside. After controlling the targeted pest, Sevin is easily broken down in the environment. (
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) And I will write my local aggie extension service about my situation. Yes I made quite a few mistakes in my endevour as pointed out by so many. And yes I did receive a lot of good input and good constructive critism.
As far as polluting the world with my careless recklessness, I will correct my ways.
Moving to NC from MA I knew nothing about all this pesticide, herbicide and chemical fertilizer business. Here I found myself surrounded by crops of all kinds. The food belt.. And when those around me suggested Roundup around the house and anywhere my mower can't hit I thought they were crazy or lazy. Pesticides - what's a few bugs. I tried inventing my own pepper-soap solutions at first. And chemical fertilizers, no way.
I saw the farmers out there spraying all kinds of stuff on them fields. It scared me - if I can smell it - I'm ingesting it. Not long after I met my girlfriend and her daddy - an 85 yo farmer with hundreds of acre that he still farmed. I ended up helping him on his farm. I never knew so many chemical odors existed. But that man could make crops. And that man is 85 yo and still farming ( he still climbs the corral gate instead of swinging it open ). And it was there that I learned that down in these parts (Sandhills)them weeds and bugs will take over without the use of chemicals. And although I haven't totally lost my fear of them, I began to see them as a necessary evil. And when I check out veggies in the local markets - I know what I'm eating. Yes I wash my store bought veggies, but one never knows for sure.
I guess we can put this post to rest now. To the flamers - flame on. To those who actually wanted to help I thank you all for your input. If you had questions unanswered I appologize for not answering ( one person asked what type grape - not known. I got the vine 5 years ago from my neighbor who knew nothing about it. He was trying to get rid of his vine but gave me a cutting. It is a white variety, takes on a golden hue when ripe and very sweet. Very prolific producer and quite vigorous. Berries grow to about 5/8 inch when ripe, tightly packed clusters 4 - 8 inches in length. Early ripening - end of July to mid August. Fruity tasting wine when semi dry. Not sure what else to add ).
Basic premise I learned from the early things like VAX notes. With these electronic communications best practice is to assume you are writing to your best friend. Some of my friends are idiots and some are not. Discerning which is which is too much for me who just likes to rub or bend elbows on occasion. Still if I detect offensive I yield and help the other go by. Chinese phi lo stuff. Perhaps with a little help push :))
Bill ... Did you work for DEC ? I started working at DEC in 82 at the Mill ( Maynard MA ). Worked from 82 - 96 ( got hit by the next to last wave of layoffs - before the were bought by Compaq ). Began as a mech designer - left as a Sr Info Sys Spec ( supporting VAX/VMS and then OpenVMS, Ultrix/UNIX ). Had a heart attack in 95 in the middle of an ALL-IN-1 trouble call - how rude. Got canned a year later with the rest of the burnouts and broken down misfits.
At one time in the VAX heyday I could walk down a hall and see a expert in computer science. This In a large company from Delaware. My boss told me to take care of making sure folks about the world had access to RS1. Seems RS1 needed a $. So I was able to grant access to many folks and I pointed out that LYNX was available at the $. Lynx = pre graphical interface to the internet. Mexican engineers flipped out in a joyous manner. Those DEC folks with physicists about did a great job in removing their need to be around. SAD. I ran two international newsletters until my boss¹s boss¹s etc bragged then a VP of the company said ³What² shut me down as I was just the lowest level employee. I know what ALL-IN-one is don¹t miss it ;)).
Peter Mroz or Roy Beatty ring a pleasant bell?
Hope the heart is treating you well I know what CABG is.
Paul, since you are making wine I offer the following information.
"Organic wine" may be hazardous to your health - depending on the wine makers practices.
For example, if SO2 is not used, if the pH of the must is above 3.5, if there is extended contact with the lees, If cultured wine yeast and ML bacteria are not used then the probability of the formation of carcinogens is enhanced.
Here is a post I contributed to the wine making news group:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I always look for articles indicating positive health benefits of drinking wine and indeed there are many. I recently came across an article in "Practical Winery & Vineyard" by Robert Tracy with the heading of "Human health concerns associated with wine microorganisms" (pp 96-98).
The partial information I summarize below is NOT an attempt to start religious wars over technique or scare anyone but to raise some concerns that we as wine makers/growers should know.
Personally, I believe there are "probably" more health related issues in a can of soda than some of the material discussed below but perhaps we can make better wine if we are aware of some of these facts.
Summary and quotes:
"From a winemaking perspective, there are two types of compounds produced by wine microbes that have health implications for the consumer: biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate. Biogenic amines have been shown to cause negative physiological effects in allergic humans (such as headaches, nausea, hot flashes), while ethyl carbamate is considered to be a probably carcinogen to humans. The probable carcinogenic properties of ethyl carbamate are based on studies with experimental animals, there is not direct evidence of it causing cancer in humans."
"The concentration and type of biogenic amines vary greatly in wines; however, generally red wines contain significantly more than white wines. In addition, there appears to be a direct correlation between elevated biogenic amines in wine, wine spoilage constituents (such as acetic acid, ethyl acetate, butyric acid, acetoin, and higher alcohol compounds), and malolactic fermentation."
Because ethyl carbamate is a probable carcinogen, it is becoming the focus of international regulation, and so its formation must be managed properly both in the vineyard and during the winemaking process."
"Even though both yeast and bacteria can generate precursors for ethyl carbamate formation, urea produced from wine yeast is thought to be the major precursor."
Factors that affect formation
"Throughout the winemaking process, a whole host of factors can influence the formation of biogenic amines including:
1) initial microbial populations present on grapes;
2) presence of precursor amino acids in grape juice;
3) ageing of wine on wither yeast lees (sur lie ageing) or lees following malolactic fermentation;
4) extended grape maceration;
5) spontaneous malolactic fermentation by indigenous lactic acid bacteria;
6) number of lactic acid bacteria that are decarboxylase-positive:
7) wine pH;
8) concentration of sulfur dioxide (SO2) following malolactic fermentation and during ageing;
9) winery sanitation practices;
10) yeast strain; and
11) fining practices (fining white wines with bentonite may remove biogenic amines).
Among these factors, it has been demonstrated that malolactic fermentation is the primary stage for biogenic amine formation during the winemaking process.
Ethyl carbamate formation is affected by the following factors:
1) argine content of grapes;
2) concentration of ethanol;
3) nutrient additions to must, during both alcoholic and malolactic fermentaitons;
4) yeast straiin;
5) spontaneous malolactid fermentaion by indigenous lactic acid bacteria;
6) ageing wine on yeast (lees (sur lie ageing);
7) temperature of iwne during ageing and shipment;
8) duration of wine ageing;
9) wine pH; and
10) wineery sanitation practices."
"Recommendations to prevent formation of biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate
Biogenic Amines
if possible periodically monitor microbial populations on grapes to determine risk for biogenic amine producers.
if possible, assess concentration of primary precursor amino acids in grapes and must.
avoid spontaneous alcoholic fermentations and use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae that lack or have minimal decarboxylase activity.
Avoid extended ageing of wine on yeast or malolactic lees.
Try to minimize extended grape maceration.
Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentations and use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that lack or have minimal amino acid decarboxylase activitry.
Try to avoid higher pH wines (above 3.7) since they allow proliferation of Lactobacillus and Pediococcus.
When pH of wine is high, lysozyme can be added to remove the natural lactic acid bacteria.
Immediately following malolactic fermentaion and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria.
Maintan good sanitation practices during wine production.
Ethyl Carbamate
Avoid argine content of > 1000 mg/L in juice.
Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization of vineyards.
Periodically monitor nitrogen status of vines and soil.
Test nitrogen status of juice.
Avoid adding excessive nitrogen supplements; do not add urea.
Use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae that are known to produce low levels of urea (Premier Cuvee (PdM) or Lallemand 71B) when juice has a high arginine content.
Avoid ageing wine on yeast lees (sur lie ageing), which can liberate amino acids and proteins.
Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentatons and use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that do not have ability to produce high levels of citrulline.
Avoid elevated temperatures during ageing and shipment of wine.
If wines are going to be aged for an extendd period of time, it is advisable to periodically monitor ethyl carbamate levels.
Try to avoid higher pH ines (above 3.7) since they allow proliferation of Lacto bacillus and Pedioccus.
Immediately following malolactic fermentation and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria.
Maintain good sanitation practices during wine production."
I realize that amateur winemakers do not have the resources to monitor all of the above but we can control a good amount of them.
I encourage anyone who is interested in the topic to pick up a copy of the magazine. There are 23 references cited at the end of the article. I did not quote the article in the entirety but tried to summarize the main points.
I remember lynx very well. In fact I just had to use it the other day ( I use Slackware Linux. I was logged in under my own username the other day and needed to pull up an html file I had on my W2k partition. Instead of logging off and then logging in as root, I just pulled up a terminal window, went to superuser and pulled the file up in lynx ). Lynx was my first web experience - no more BBS's, no more gopher, or archie etc. The web was here and DEC had two gateways to the internet. I couldn't wait to get home to my vt100 and dial in my 300bps modem, fire up lynx and see what was out there.. ( although most web sites at the time were computer related in nature and content. Not much else ).
And "$" command prompt. My handle was "sys$shrink". Reminds me of a time when I shutdown what I thought was my own system when I heard beeping going off all over the place and quickly realized I was logged into a cluster node instead... Shutdown the whole cluster.. I hid under a table.... @sys$system:shutdown .... >>> ( ... boot prompt ).
Interesting article, however I suggest you check with
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download the "Ethyl Carbamate Preventative Action Manual: English Language Version, PDF format". It is put out by U.C.Davis. I have no idea who Robert Tracy is or if he is just trying to spice up a story.
S U M M A R Y
Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization in the vineyard.
Monitor soil nitrogen status.
Monitor vine nitrogen status.
Do not use winter legumes as cover crops if soil nitrogen status is already high.
Be aware that nitrogen uptake varies strongly with different cultivars and especially rootstocks.
Monitor juice nitrogen status.
Do not add excessive nitrogen supplements.
Do not add nitrogen supplements routinely.
Do not add urea as nitrogen supplement.
Avoid juice arginine levels greater than 1000 mg/L.
When choosing among wine yeast strains, avoid those with high urea excretion characteristics.
Use malo-lactic bacteria with known characteristics.
Be aware that use of urease preparations cannot completely eliminate EC formation.
Be aware that must fortification may aggravate the problem of urea excretion by yeast.
Monitor EC levels of fortification spirit.
Avoid exposure of wine to elevated temperatures during storage and transport
Yeah, I liked that bit about everyone else being so ignorant that the "correct" reply requried a separate header -- followed by stuff straight from the vendors' "toxins are good!" literature.
An organic gardener will never use Carbaryl no matter the brand name. I'm willing to stay open minded about its dangers or safety -- the evidence is not in its favor but all things are relative. The Tercyl brand (active ingredient Carbaryl) it is classified a class 1 toxin, and in Sevin, with less active ingredient, it is a class 2 toxin; and it becomes a Class 3 toxin for some other brands which have barely any active ingredient at all. It's toxic in every case with many high-dosage problems and fewer (but still serious) low exposure risks.
But whether or not the "last word" on the topic ever comes available, the main thing is that putting "organic" on a toxin doesn't mean organic gardeners would use it, no more than they'd slather aresenic on everything, which'd be perfectly "organic" to do. Sevin will kill beneficial insects, destroy the natural balance, and insure the return of harmful insects while the beneficial will be slower to recover.
Carbaryl might LEGALLY be used in organic produce fields but those sort of regulations are never about the best thing for the environment -- they're about how much you can get away with in a one-species commercial crop to maximize harvests and still sell the product at the higher price as organic. Organic gardening is about achieving a healthful balance that does away with even needing toxins, such as can't seriously be achieved in a one-species crop but certainly can be achieved in a balanced multi-species garden for which nature becomes an aid and not a hindrance.
The ACTUAL organic method of treating Japanese beetles for a specific example is to increase the entomopathogenic nematode and milky spore population in the soil, following label instructions very narrowly as the desireable microorganisms may not take hold if applied to soil willynilly under less than favorable conditions. These require very specific season and weather conditions to take hold, but once they do, the nematodes will take care of the grubs of a great many harmful species, and the milkly spoor will be a permanent fix that gets the Japanese beetle grubs specifically (it effects no other species at all). Japanese beetles will never recur, as they will when using pesticides like carbaryl which merely start the endless cycle of pesticide dependence.
The beneficial microorganism route is unbeatable, but it's not instant, and in the meantime, while waiting two years for milky spore to take care of Japanese beetles completely, the subsidiary organic methods begin with hand-removal when the insects are active on plants (they're great to feed a pet lizard or pixi frog or laying hens or ciclids such as an oscar). Planting something they love to distraction, like a Rose of Sharon or a dwarf crabapple in a very warm/sunny spot, centralizes the beetle-plucking. Further assistance can be from the parastic wasps Tiphia vernalis or T. popilliavora which get the beetle eggs, available from a number of companies and which some neighborhoods join forces to obtain for an entire block.
Traps can also be placed about for the adult beetles, which some field studies show take care of as many as three-fourths of the adult beetles in June and August, and work best at garden peripheries away from plants as they effectively draw the beetles out of the garden (whereas placed IN the garden the traps may draw adults from your neighbor's yard and a third or a fourth of those will get side-tracked by cool plants; also there'll be so many beetles in the traps that they'll stink of decomposing insects).
In the main, the microorganism route, with some hand-plucking until it takes hold, is all a garden demands to stay fully organic. And the best part is that works way better than carbaryl or any other toxin one might otherwise select.
OK, just so we are clear on this...I am NOT an organic gardener, I use chemical ferts all the time, but I do not use Sevin or any of its derivatives or any any other herbicide or pesticide on my garden or lawn. Yeah I have crabgrass and other damn things I cannot name- but when I give my daughter a cherry tomato, I know it's not been dosed with some damn crap.
Good for you, that is the first step but pesticides come from the same petroleum base as the chem ferts. Your cherry tomatoes are more nutritious without the pesticides and healthier without their residues. Additionally, the easily accessible nitrogen from chem ferts is quickly transported and concentrated in the leaves of your crops, which and makes them desirable to insects. The quality of your crops will be similar to what you would get from hydroponics.
The next step is to grow your soil to grow your plants. Chem ferts are salts and damage the food chains (webs, whatever) in the soil. There is a symbiotic relationship between the flora and fauna in the garden soil and the plants that you cultivate which makes for more nutritious and healthier plants. If you already see a half dozen worms in a shovel full of soil, your garden is in good shape and you can keep it that way with alfalfa mulches, green manures (plants), and cover crops.
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