Legal/Ethical Dilemma?

[Michelle C]

Three years ago, my neighbors were storing a canoe up against the chain link fence that separates our backyards. It was an eyesore. My opinion is that I have no right complaining to my neighbors about what they do on their own property, so I took a pro-active approach instead. I planted some Silver Lace vines on the chain link fence. This worked very well, and by the end of summer it hid the canoe, and it looked really nice.

The following year, they got rid of the canoe and planted a flower garden in its place. Even though I no longer needed the vines, they looked so beautiful that I kept them.

Now, three years later, they are a magnificent backdrop to the rest of my flower garden. It's a backdrop to their flower garden too, and they didn't even have to pay for it.

During teh Christmas holidays, I invited these neighbors over for a holiday drink, and James said "Michelle, you're going to have to do something about those vines." When I asked him what he meant, he said that the vines were growing into their yard and are strangling their plants.

I told him that it's a vine, and all vines need trimming occasionally. I told him I trim my side of the vine every two or three weeks in the summer, and it only takes about five minutes each time. I said that's a small price to pay for having such a beautiful plant that is covering what was an ugly chain link fence.

He told me that he and his wife shouldn't have to trim it at all, because it was my vine. He said if I were willing to trim it on their side of the fence from now on, they wouldn't have a problem with it, but if I don't do this, I'd have to "do something about my vines". He of course means I should kill the plants to make him happy.

I changed the topic and wasn't the same for the rest of the evening. I was insulted that they would come into my home, drink my wine, and use it as an opportunity to criticize me. Plus, it's winter! Why is he bringing that up in the middle of winter?

I have already decided that I will trim the vines on their side of the fence. But now I'm wondering who is right, and who is wrong, in this situation? Am I right to think my neighbors are cranky? Does the law obligate me to trim vines that enter my neighbors yard? Should they accept the minor chore of vine trimming in return for having such a beautiful backdrop (their words) to their garden?

TIA! Michelle

[zxcvbob]

Your neighbor is an ass, and you can't possibly win this.

If you trim the vines on their side, they will complain you didn't do it good enough or you stepped on some of their plants or something. They will also expect you to keep them trimmed, and to do a better job next time.

If you do nothing, they will probably spray the vines on their side with weed killer in an attempt to destroy them on both sides of the fence.

Best regards, Bob

[Doug Kanter]

Since it only takes 5 minutes, just walk over there and trim it. If you think they're really picky, ask one of them to come out and tell you if it's done the way they like it. Of all the neighbor problems you could have, this is like a .25 on a scale of 0 through 10. Don't make it worse. As far as them "drinking your wine", you invited them, right? They probably figured it would be good to broach the subject when everyone was loosened up a bit.

Shall I tell you about my neighbor, who thought it was OK to let their ChemLawn moron hose down my vegetable garden with pesticides, and how I was prepared to get an injunction from our town justice, which would've directed the cops to arrest the neighbor if the spraying actually took place? That's an 8 on the scale. A convicted child molester moving in next door - that's a

10.

[paghat]

I wouldn't risk trespassing on the property of people loony enough to prefer a stark ugly chainlink fenced to vines. I think what you need is a pleasant natural wooden fence of your own. six feet tall, against which you can grow five kinds of vines if you like, PLUS you will never again have to look at that ugly-ass chainlink fence or anything they lean up against it in the future. You also need much better judgement about who you invite into your house.

As for "law" -- ordinances vary from place to place but in general a fence is not supposed to be placed right on a property line UNLESS both property owners cooperate & agree to place the fence right on the property line. Whoever puts up a fence inside their property line is legally required to maintain the fence. A fence is usually a foot or so inside their property line, & the owners of the fence have access to both sides. If nobody ever signed a Fence Compliance Form showing mutual agreement to be directly on a property line, it has to be inside the fence owner's property. If the fence is right on the property line without mutual agreement, you can force them move it to conform to the local ordinance, with fun neighbor-wars resulting.

Many ordinances require a fence to be set back "a reasonable distance" which is defined as enough space to allow the fence owner to access both sides of the fence for its maintenance. If their fence meets this legal requirement, they can even come on your side of the fence & remove anything attached to it, or paint it, or whatever they decidce to do to it. If it is placed right on the property line with mutually signed Fence Compliance Form signed by all parties, then you are responsible both for the mainteance of your side of the fence & for keeping anything from afflicting their side of the fence.

In any case, what grows through a fence or over a fence to the other side they can legally remove. But where a chainlink is involved, where really does a vine tresspass to the other side? If one side of the fence wants to see vines, and the other side of the fence does not want them, there's no possibility of mutually satisfactory use, which is just one more reason why a fence that ugly-ass should never be used to separate properties. Which underscores your need for a privacy-providing & vastly more attractive natural wood fence of your own, placed according to ordinance requirements if they will not enter into a mutual agreement to have a more aesthetic fence placed directly on the property line.

They don't sound like reasonable people but the law is almost certainly on their side. If they ARE reasonable you might be able to convince them to permit you to replace a fence that does not allow for mutually agreeable use (you cannot grow vines on it when there is no way to keep them on your side), & at your expense put up an aesthetic fence that does not allow such free penetration of plant life. Your side cna be rich & green, theirs they can paint purple polka dot if they like. Or just put it inside your property & you maintain both sides of the fence.

Most regulations require a fence to be no higher than six feet (some city or county ordinances allow 8 feet) in a back yard or along an alley; no higher than three feet at the front of a house (sometimes four feet); no closer than a foot from sidewalks, interfering with no easements, blocking no street-corner visibility from vehicles, with a minimum of one four-foot-wide access gate in case of fire or other emergency. Sometimes a fence building permit is needed, that costs very little with the building department, but some areas require a permit only for fences that one wants exceptions to not conform to an ordinance (for instance a seven or eight foot fence might need a permit for the variance, but a six foot or smaller that adheres to all requirements would not require a permit).

Placement of a fence also requires that the rights of adjacent property owners are not allowed to be hindered; if the present fence is directly on the property line, it could be argued that your right to grow vines on a fence has definitely been hindered by their right to not have vines on their side of the fence, forcing the issue of either replacing it witha fence that protects both sides' rights equally, or requiring them to move the fence away from the property line so that they alone maintain both sides of it & which provides you room to have your own fence with access to both sides.

-paghat the ratgirl

[Joe]

Perhaps you could move your vine, or take cuttings, to another spot away from them, and plant some less invasive climber like a clematis?

[Michelle C]

Thanks for your reply, Bob.

I intend to trim the vine as short as possible on their side, so as to require less trimming, and less bitching from them. It will also deprive them of the beauty of the plant.

If they still complain, I'll remove it and put up a privacy fence.

- Michelle

PS These same neighbors complain that my oak trees drop leaves into their yard each fall. I don't think they are reasonable people.

[Michelle C]

Hi Doug,

These same neighbors have complained about my oaks and elms dropping leaves into their yard each fall, and of shading their pool too much during the summer. Personally, I think they are a pain in the ass, but I want to hear what others think.

You're right though... at the end of the day, this 'problem' is only a minor irritation.

[Michelle C]

WOW! You must be a lawyer! Thanks for your reply, paghat!

You're right... I'll probably end up getting a privacy fence. But if I do, I'll pay for the entire thing myself. They aren't the most co-operative of neighbors.

[Doug Kanter]

Some vines still find their way through every crack in those fences.

[Doug Kanter]

Michelle: Sounds like if there's rain with a little wind coming from your direction, they'll say it's YOUR rain overwatering their yard. These people need a condo, not a house. Are they the kinds of wankers who case 3 leaves around the yard with a leaf blower for 8 hours straight?

[Anonny Moose]

We have a problem neighbor too. What we did was build three trellis structures separated by evergreen trees about 2 feet inside the fenceline (there is an existing three rail cedar fence). Because there is no height restriction on the trellis, they are eight feet tall and I have rambling and climbing roses growing on them, and I can trim both sides. They block the objectionable view and look lovely in bloom. Your neighbors sound as unreasonable as ours and I wish you luck.

Karen

[dr-solo]

we not only have to trim all the crappy brush grows thru our 700 foot long fence along our drive, we gotta cart all the trimmings away rather than tossing them over the fence into their wild trashy brush. Ingrid

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[clc]

And definitely, DO NOT invite them to any more social gatherings at your home! What a waste of "social time"... Too bad we can't pick our neighbors; I know I'd have one that would definitely be a goner.

Cheryl

[Warren]

And yet you invite them over for a drink?

The only way to deal with unreasonable people is to avoid them. That would preclude actually inviting them over, and giving them wine.

On the other hand, it really could be that they have different expectations about the vine. Perhaps they haven't trimmed it because they're afraid you're an unreasonable person who'll freak-out because they're chopping away at your vine. Perhaps where they grew-up, people trimmed plants that went into other people's yards. Maybe they expect that reasonable people clean-up leaves from their trees that fall on their neighbor's lawn.

I have a neighbor who doesn't have a tree in his front yard. I have a huge tree that even extends over part of his lawn. When I vac up the leaves on my yard, I continue past the lot line, and get the heavy leaf fall. I don't go and grab every leaf that's blown across his lawn, but once I'm done, he really doesn't have to rake. If the tables were turned, I probably wouldn't complain about raking, but I'd notice the irony of needing to rake when I don't even have a tree.

So maybe they just didn't want to trim your vine. And it's really not so far out there to expect that you would trim your vine -- even the part going over the lot line. Perhaps your reaction caught them off guard, and it's not that they would mind doing it now that they know they're allowed to. It may just be that they were surprised that you *expected* them to trim *your* vine.

Maybe they are unreasonable people. But there's not enough information to tell. They could be reasonable people with different expectations and customs than you.

[Michelle C]

"> And yet you invite them over for a drink?

Yes, in the spirit of Christmas and in the hopes that we could get along. My mistake. Sorry.

That's ridiculous.

Add that is beyond ridiculous.

Hey - you don't live next door to me, do you?

[Michelle C]

Actually, Doug, they do have leaf blowers - two of them. They also have two cars, one pickup truck, two ATVs on a trailer, one boat on a trailer, one house trailer, and two snowmobiles... most of which are scattered around their property in what used to be a nice neighborhood.

[Warren]

Why? Because *you* know you're not an unreasonable person? Based on the way you've dismissed what I've said as rediculous, I'm already getting the impression that you're an unreasonable person who isn't willing to accept that differnt people have different perspectives. If that's how you treat them, I wouldn't be surprised to hear from them that you're an unreasonable neighbor.

The dynamics of how the neighborhood I grew up in and where I live now are completely different. Neighbors expect different things from each other 40 years and 2000 miles away. There isn't just one right way of viewing a situation like this. But maybe you think that's ridiculous, too.

[Robert Chambers]

[Michelle C]

It's "rediculous" (sic) because you're making judgements about me and you don't even know me.

[Doug Kanter]

Michelle, you need to find a local coven and hire a witch. :-)