The Battle of the groups

[george conklin]

Ah yes, but the poster wants "urban elites" to be near him, as in "The Revanchist City."

[george conklin]

Well, in the USA the average commute time is about 20 minutes, more or less. That is a reasonable time. If planners had to decide where everyone lived, and the average commute time was 20 minutes, they would be posting about the total success of their planning. The fact that it works out that way without planners having much effect annoys them.

Commuting time in the USA is already reasonable.

Irrelevant.

[george conklin]

Except that it is true.

I'm downtown by choice. My choice has nothing to do

The book was speaking about urban patterns as a whole, and your personal opinion is thus not relevant to the patterns.

You could break down and read the book.

[HVS]

On 30 Oct 2007, george conklin wrote

If someone commutes for 5 minutes and someone else does 35, they're averaging 20 minutes.

The mode is the significant figure; the mean is...meaningless.

[george conklin]

Very stupid comment.

[3D Peruna]

Not really... it's a valid comment. Mean numbers are mostly meaningless.

We have most people who have a 35 minute commute. We have a few people with a 5 minute commute. The average could be 20 minutes (because of how the math works out), but the reality is most people have a 35 minute commute, not a 5 minute commute. Most people don't have a 20 minute commute, but according to your logic, the mean says they do. You appear to be happy with that number, when those commuting clearly are not because they're spending 15 minutes longer in the car than you say they are.

[Amy Blankenship]

Aw, come on, George. Couldn't you have found a way to squeeze in the word "normative," too?

I'm disappointed in you.

[Amy Blankenship]

[HVS]

On 31 Oct 2007, Amy Blankenship wrote

It's rather fun yanking the chain of someone with the debating skills of a six-year-old, but it soon gets a bit boring....

[Michael Bulatovich]

Repeating a thing does not make it true, except in the sense of the "Big Lie."

You keep dodging criticism of your statements, by referring back to "the book." My comments were made in relation to *your* "review", and subsequent posts. If you're statement was meant to be about "urban patterns as a whole" then your choice of words did not match your intent, as it was not stated. Perhaps you are using a personal shorthand but it impedes any discussion with others. Saying that being "close to downtown is irrelevant" without any context invites one to infer that it is meant as a universally true statement. I pointed out that it isn't, if only in the case of one individual (me).

I'm fairly busy. If I'm going to read a book on the basis of a "review", I'm afraid it couldn't be this kind of review. It was sloppy, highly polemical and rhetorical and the bias of the author was evident right from the start- more of an op-ed piece, or a sermon, than a review. Its bias contradicted my own position, but I read on and quickly found unsubstantiated claims in it.

I made comments related to that on the group, but have yet to see them addressed, other than some quick and puerile ridicule based on an obvious misreading of my comment or misunderstanding of the data. That is political behavior, not intellectual.

Do you still remember my 2 points? If you want credibility with me then addressing them would be a good start. If, on the other hand, you want to be the champion of the suburbs, knock yourself out, but I'm not really interested in engaging an impenetrable ideology. When I was young I used to find that amusing, but now I don't have time for it.

If the next thing you advocate is the right to personally bear nuclear weapons, and then the abolition of all cities, which, come to think of it, does seem to have a frightening internal cohesion, there's a line forming over there.....behind Don.

[Michael Bulatovich]

Don. Is that you?

Do you have trouble with the word "second"?

Me and everyone else.

When will you and the Vandals be by? I want to be ready...

[Michael Bulatovich]

I've heard enough, I'm going to free up some pixels.

[HVS]

On 31 Oct 2007, Michael Bulatovich wrote

It's certainly more than a bit "does/doesn't/does too": like the Monty Python sketch without the charm...

[Michael Bulatovich]

hehe.. Does NOT!

[Jack May]

The graph of the commute times for different parts of the world are in Figure 1 of:

You decide what is typical. It looks like about an hour per day of travel is typical for the world.

[HVS]

On 31 Oct 2007, Jack May wrote

Very interesting; thanks. The figures feel right (although they appear to be "travel time per day", rather than single-commute times).

When I studied with Hans Blumenfeld in the mid 1970s, his intuitive sense (which usually proved to be sound) was that the historical determinant/limiter of city size was the area which could be covered in 30 minutes by the dominant mode of travel (foot/horse/train/car).

That still seems about right, and I think it's why the natives get restless when that average (due to congestion, say) goes much higher, and the mode starts slipping out to, say, a 40-minute commute.

I'm sceptical of George's "average commute time" of "about 20 minutes, more or less"; it sounds suspiciously low.

[Jack May]

That would be 40 minutes per day commuting and roughly 20 minutes per day for other things like shopping, driving the kids to things, and going out for entertainment.

I think his 20 minutes for a one way commute is from census data.

[Warm Worm]

I am reminded of our recent discussion of cars, and your stuff about horses falling down and cars not creating sprawl or something like that... ...I guess as long as you try to avoid letting a book-- any book-- you fancy, sidetrack you, or muddle your reading-comprehension or general understanding beyond the book, we should be ok. ;)

Or, you could read the book and break down. ;P

[George Conklin]

Your ignorance is exceeded only by your ignorance.

[George Conklin]

Average commute times are a very important indicator of the quality of life in a region. Looking only at your personal opinions is a waste of everyone's time, including mine.