Wow, is this safe?

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... or efficient?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZTXvsrzbSQ

(using a jointer to taper legs)
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On 10/22/15 9:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

Looks like a viable technique. I don't see anything unsafe with his *method.* However, as I've said so many times before, those stupid birds-mouth push sticks are very UNsafe. I cringe when I see him using them for doing that. The whole procedure would go much more smoothly and safely if he'd only use a shoe-style push block.
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Actually, since he needs to rock the part back on end for the second cut, the bird's mouth stick might be better for that. It's kind of an unusual application to want to raise the leading edge of the work, usually you're trying to force the leading edge down.
John
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On 10/22/15 4:00 PM, John McCoy wrote:

As far as I can tell, the reason he makes the first notch on the back side, is so the piece can move forward on two stable points. A shoe push block would be fine in doing that.
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You're kind of missing the point. The advantage of a shoe type push block is it exerts it's force well forward of the trailing edge of the work - which is desirable when you want to keep the work flat, as on a table saw.
For this cut, tho, you don't want the force forward. You want all of the downward force right at the trailing edge of the work. You could do that with a shoe, but it's probably easier to focus all the force on that point with the birds-mouth.
John
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On 10/23/15 10:58 AM, John McCoy wrote:

I'm not missing any point and I know perfectly well how and why shoe blocks work. Exerting force forward of the trailing edge is *one* advantage of a shoe block, not the only or even most important advantage. A shoe block can and would put downward force where it's needed for the procedure in this video. I have several shop-made shoe blocks of differing sizes/lengths, all with can be made in the time it takes to locate an appropriately size garbage can for storing a birdmouth pushstick. :-)
I still say a shoe block is better this (and just about any other) procedure. You can even see how uneasy the guy is with the birdsmouth sticks. That's generally how it goes any time people try to do a procedure with two pushsticks, trying to apply pressure in two directions at one time.
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-MIKE-

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On 10/23/2015 11:53 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

[snip]

If the only tool you have is a hammer then every problem tends to be a nail. Nothing wrong with birds mouth push sticks any more than there is with shoe blocks, etc. The trick is to use the one most appropriate for the job or... maybe custom make one for the job at hand.
I would not use the birds mouth stick as the gent did in the video... at least not when I'm knocking 3/8" off of stock. I'd want much more control than those will provide. OTOH, if the taper was going to be subtle, like 3/8" total, depending on the type of stock I might be comfortable using the birds mouth.
I suspect that those of us who get in trouble - and all of us do at one time or another - fall into the trap of "I know this ain't the best setup but..." It's quite similar to "Hey, hold my beer and watch this!" <g>
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My point exactly. For that particular job, a push stick that focused all the force at the trailing end would be most appropriate. Which isn't to say another style wouldn't work, it's more of a "better" and "best" situation.
As for a custom part, and to Mike's point about the difficulty of using two push sticks, I think if I were going to use that technique I'd try to find a way to use featherboards rather than the second stick. Which might take a specially shaped featherboard, or some sort of riser block to put it in the right position.
John
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On 10/24/2015 8:39 AM, John McCoy wrote:

[snip]

My thought on customizing the push block for doing the tapered leg on the jointer was to make an "L-shaped" push block with the sides slightly less width than the leg itself with a hook or edge on the near end to firmly push. Made in this fashion I think it would provide adequate support to hold down and snug the workpiece to the fence and table. Again, just thinking aloud but that's what I'd do. (Think of those jigs used to machine small parts on a router table. The jig firmly attached (however) to the workpiece and the jig is way larger than the workpiece for good control and safety.
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On 10/23/2015 12:53 PM, -MIKE- wrote: I have several shop-made shoe blocks of differing sizes/lengths,

I almost always prefer birdsmouth sticks, particularly on the table saw. I have zero problems applying pressure in two directions at the same time. IMO (and considerable experience) Birdmouths are very safe, hard to get hurt using them.
On the table saw, if the piece is large enough for a shoe block, I generally just use my hand. If it's too small for my hand, I prefer to use two birdsmouth, although in the last few years I have been using a piece of 2x with a handle. I feel very comfortable using two birds on the jointer when the piece is too small for a shoe type.
I see nothing particularly dangerous with his methods, although I never did it, I think it looks like a great method, not sure about a 3/8" cut on my jointer, unless I had a segmented spiral cutter head, which I really wish I had on my jointer.
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email.me:

Well, I wouldn't do it that way (*), but it don't know it looks especially unsafe. You'd want to be very careful of kickback on the first cut (3/8th is a lot on a jointer), and when it's rocked up on end for the second cut it looks kind of difficult to control, but with practice it doesn't look worse than many other machining operations.
(* I'd usually cut them on the bandsaw, and clean up with a hand plane).
John
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On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 16:52:09 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy

power tools. - and about the simplest way to do the job -a lot more foolproof than using a taper jig on a table saw or band saw, and no planing required to get a smooth finish when you are done.
Repeatability is also excellent - all your legs will be virtually identical - pretty hard to accomplish with the bandsaw and hand plane.
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On 10/22/2015 3:51 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Bandsaw needs no jig, simply freehand to the line and clean it up.
And, repeatability is near trivial...for first step, one would gang the work pieces.
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On 10/22/2015 10:01 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Certainly more efficient and reproducible than the one-at-a-time of the demo, yes. But, these aren't production woodworking groups; it is <rec>
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Greg Guarino wrote:

------------------------------ 3/8" climb cuts are not my speed.
To many other ways to do the job.
Lew
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On 10/23/2015 12:22 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

There's no "climb cut" anywhere to be seen -- a stopped cut, yes, but it's into the cutter and is a normal operation on a jointer.
A climb cut is cutting with the material moving in the same direction as the rotating cutter; that would be feeding from the outfeed table towards the infeed and yes, if were suggesting that it would be a definite no-no; but it isn't.
As I pointed out above, I'd worry some about the 3/8" in hardwoods primarily just for quality of the cut and likelihood of tearout (particularly with something like red oak that'd be _a_bad_idea_(tm) ) but looks like he's got a chunk of softwood in the demo.
It seems to me that many of what were considered routine operations 50+ year ago have been lost with the lack of industrial education. The general use of the jointer as demonstrated is not out of the ordinary at all; the only thing at all questionable in my opinion is that healthy cut in "one swell foop" instead of a couple of passes.
I can't think when last time I saw/heard anybody suggest use of the rabbeting table on the jointer as intended/designed...
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On 10/23/2015 9:36 AM, dpb wrote: ...

In fact, I venture there is a sizable fraction who don't even understand what that little outcroppie thingie is there for at all...
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I had to do a set of 3/4x3/4 rabbets on some 6' boards recently. I considered the jointer for a moment, then said "no way!". ended up using the tablesaw (two cuts with a regular blade).
I think I've used that rabbeting shelf once, just to see how it worked. Haven't dared use it since then.
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On 10/23/2015 2:34 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:

Ditto! Of the many ways to make a rabbet, this has to be the least favorite. I did it exactly once for the same reason as you, just way too much hassle for the the wrong tool to do the job. Well, it might be better than using a motor-less rabbeting plane... yuck.
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