I had two panels bigger than the largest planer I could use for free, so I paid a lumberyard $20 to sand them to 3/4". I have bought about $1500 of wood from them in the last 8 months.
When I went to use them I found one didn't lay flush with the 3/4" frame it was next to. Measuring it, I found it was 0.02" oversized. (The other one is probably oversized also, but since it is not next to anything, it doesn't really matter.) I took it back to the lumberyard, a half hour drive. They said their DC was down, but they would do it and call me when it was ready.
A week later I called them. It was done, they just hadn't called me. At this point I was a bit angry; not only had they done it wrong the first time, necessitating two extra drives out there, but then they don't even bother to call me.
When I picked up they tried to charge me again for the work.
Was I justified in refusing to pay? It seems to me that 3/4" is 0.750", not
0.770", and it should have been done right the first time. Am I over-reacting?
What is the standard tolerance for wood planing? I have no idea, but it should have been mentioned before they started. Better to be over size and correctable than under and have a total loss or more difficult fix. Lesson learned is to check when you pick the work up.
The lack of communications internally is all too common. Yes, I'd be annoyed also.
Overall, it was a poor experience, but not something I'd hold a grudge forever. If they are a good supplier otherwise, hold on to them and be cautions next time around. Ed
The wood was initially 13/16, or 0.81. They took it to 0.77" instead of
0.75". So their error was about 30%. Ever try to put a tongue and groove together that is off by 0.02"? That is not so terribly precise. Nor was it cheap; I paid $20 for a job that took less than 10 minutes.
I concede I should have measured it before taking it home the first time, so some of the inconvenience was my fault; but they still would have tried to charge me.
No, you did not tell them how much to take off, you tokd them how much to leave on. Tolerance remains at 3%. All dimennsions have a plus or minus. They erred on the plus side, which was god for you.
Yes, that is cheap. Stop by my shop and you will pay a minmum of $100. Machines run at $200/hour plus material. That 10 minutes was the machine time I'd bet. Not the time you took in the office, taking the part to the shop, bringing it back to you etc. Today, cheap labor is $50 an hour with a minimum of 1 hour. Skilled labor is $70 to $100, professional $150 to $250.
You don't know that. Chances are right on the spot they would have just fixed it and all would be happy.
We do things for customers at no charge at times because the expense of billing is more than the cost of the operation. There is a goodwill factor also. Another consideration, was the person that wanted to charge you aware that it was a fix, not a first time job? Ed
Tolerances/errors are always referenced to the required dimension, in this case the error is 2.66%. I am curious if the yard would have been interested in doing the job if you had specified say 0.75 +- 0.005", calibration on those machines isn't precise and depends on the grit on the machine.
The large sander I have used has no calibrations at all. You put the wood in, and lower it until you hear it sanding. Then you lower it a half a turn each pass until you have the right thickness. No problem at all getting to within a few thousandths.
They didn't go beyond the 60 grit they used to cut it.
For a woodworking shop that is undoubtedly true. I used to run a factory. When someone came in asking us to plate or mill something small, we simply declined. It really didn't matter what we charged, it wouldn't have covered the disruption. However... in the 20 times I have been there I have only seen one of their machines in use once or twice. So the $20 represents pure profit. Their posted rate is $60/hour; I don't actually know how long it took them, I just figured it wouldn't have taken me more than 10 minutes if I were doing it on their machine.
none of this matters anyway. either they or you should have specified the tolerance. the fact that this wasnt done is/was the crux of the problem. all else is a result of that not having been done.
P.S. Just be careful who you bitch to...and who you talk to. Employees usually don't care about the reputation of the company...and often don't express the true sentiments of management. Make sure you talk/bitch to someone in authority...someone in management.
Have a nice week...
Trent
What do you call a smart blonde? A golden retriever.
It was not pure profit. The guy that did the work earned a wage, even if it was 1/6 of an hour. The machine used electricity and you used up some of the consumables. Small as it is, you used some of the life of the machine. They are paying for the machine to be there for your convenience also, both in the cost of the machine and the space it takes up.
That twenty bucks is a little contribution to overhead and maybe a tiny profit. Ed
Most tapes, and even many machinist's rules, don't read in 64ths of an inch, so it's hard to understand how you measured the wood. Or expected the lumberyard to. And did you ever try to read the thickness of a piece of wood to a 64th with a tape or a rule?
Oh, wait, you used a micrometer or a set of vernier or dial calipers. Did you expect them to do the same? That's not woodworking, it's metalworking.
If you wanted the pieces to match within .02", there's an easy way to do it. Woodworkers do it all the time. You just run all of the pieces - panels and frame pieces - through the planer or sander at one setting.
You asked them to sand thepieces to 3/4". They did, within normal woodworking tolerances. Try matching up two 3/4" planed boards of two different species, or from two different lots. You'll probably find much more variation than .02". I'd bet on it.
I probably wouldn't have charged you for the second pass. On the other hand I might not have run them a second time - I just might have explained to you that you were asking for something that a normal mill would not do, and handed you back your first $20. And explained to you that if you really wanted all the pieces to match that closely, you had to bring them all in and run them together. Again, they didn't do anything wrong the first time. You were angry because of the driving - hardly their fault.
Taking off an extra .02" with a scraper would have been a few minutes work.
Get some opinions from a few more millwork companies. Tell them you need some thickness planing or sanding done, and that you'll be in with your micrometer to check their results. Expect a few laughs.
Again, I'd probably have refunded your money or done the second pass free. On the other hand, they just may have been thinking "What if I end up at .74" by his micrometer? Will he expect me to replace his panels? No thanks..."
Just my opinion, though. I work both wood and metal. Metal often to .001", very occasionally to .0001". But not wood.
If he was using something that was graduated in 64ths, how could he say with any certainty that it measured .770 (1/64=.0156)?
Probably with calipers. They are becomming very common in woodshops, both home and professional.
See above.
Don't know about him but I have. I'll garantee my measurements to +/-.003.
Yes.
No. See above. Hobbiest woodworkers tend to get very hung up on doing things the way they did 100 years ago saying that that was real quality. Professionals take advantage of modern technology like anyone else.
No. For work of this kind, within a 1/64 would generally be considered max deviation. They didn't make that.
Try matching up two 3/4" planed boards of two different species,
Out of the mill, I'm sure you would. They are not concerned with final use.
I'm afraid I don't understand. You can measure the thickness of a piece of wood with a tape or rule not just to within a 64th, but to .003"?
If someone asks you to to thickness some wood for them, will it be within .003"? Or a 64th?
Let's just say for the sake of argument that 1/64" is the maximum tolerance allowable on thickness planing or sanding. His frame pieces could have been as small as .734". His panels could have been as large as .766". Both in tolerance, but a difference of .032" rather than the .020" he was complaining about. And we don't even know what thickness his frame pieces were - he said they were 3/4". He never said he measured them to .750".
You're right, woodworking has changed quite a bit in the last 100 years. But thickness planers were capable of just as much accuracy as they are today, even without digital readouts. Measuring tools were capable of that accuracy as well.
There's another thing that hasn't changed in that 100 years, and that is wood. It still moves with humidity changes, and that is one reason that woodworking is not done to thousandths of an inch. But the real reason is that it just plain doesn't need to be held to that accuracy. Working to tighter tolerances than are demanded by the plans might make you feel good, but an employee who does so is costing his company money.
I can't tell you what the standard tolerance is in the woodworking industry for thickness planing or sanding, because I've never seen one. I'm not sure such a thing exists. Individual customers can certainly request that their work be done to any tolerance they want, and that's fine. But he never did any such thing.
I mentioned that I do metalwork as well as wood, and that the metalwork is occasionally to tolerances in ten thousandths. Only where it's really needed, such as in bearing fits.
You'll agree that metal is generally supplied to tighter tolerances than wood is, I'm sure. Just for the hell of it, what do you think the tolerance for a
1" thick cold rolled high carbon steel flat might be? Well, for one steel manufacturer whose catalog I happen to have in front of me, it's plus or minus .01". Not that much less than the 64th you think the wood thickness should be held to.
Again, if he wants the frame and panel pieces to match, he should have run them together. Or fiddled with them himself until they matched. Or he could have specified ahead of time to the mill that the piece had to be exactly a certain size. Within a certain tolerance. To tell the mill that he just wanted it sanded to 3/4" wasn't enough.
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