sawstop running

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sent to: rec.woodworking snipped-for-privacy@yahoogroups.com snipped-for-privacy@sawstop.com snipped-for-privacy@sawstop.com
from: snipped-for-privacy@tc.umn.edu http://www.cala.umn.edu/workshop /
Hey All.
We got our 2 sawstop saws on 12/28/04
I've spent the last couple weeks setting em up - biesmeyer overhead bladeguards, full outfeed tables, excalibur/exactor sliding tables. I'd forgotten how long it takes to set up shop. We haven't run the saws much yet, but here are some observations I've made so far.
quality - These machines seem as well built as the unisaw that we bought 4 years ago(not saying much really). An extention table flatness problem has been mentioned, but our tables and rt wings are flat within .010". We never put on the left wings since we installed sliding tables, so I cannot speak to that issue. The trunnions, arbor shaft, bearings, and even the main table are beefier than comparable parts on a unisaw and I think even a pm 66. The polished handwheels are big and heavy with very nicely spinning cranks. Height & angle adjustment are smooth and easy (of course the machines are brand new, so they better be) . I'd like a polished tabletop, and these are just ground, but that will make the first scratches less painful. The machines are smoother and quieter than the last unisaw was when new. A nickel sits on edge on the tabletop from start up through cutting 8/4 maple through shut down. Initial indications are that these machines are well made. - time will tell.
design - There is alot going on inside of these saws. I like the linear (rather than arc) raising action, it seems much more intuitive even if more complicated. A gas spring supports the arbor and assists blade raising. The splitter/blade guard/riving knife is EXCELLENT - easy to change, easy to adjust, and wedded to blade height like it should be. The blade guard itself is only about 1-1/4" wide and contoured to "hug" the blade- much less obtrusive than traditional guards. We will likely ALWAYS use the riving knife and the overhead blade guard. I expect significantly fewer kickbacks as a result of the "invisible" riving knife. The brake cartridge is not the easiest thing to change- but it will probably become easier as we do it. The extenion table is gloss black laminate. Black? Gloss? Can you say glare? We will probably start with sanding out the gloss, then get rid of the black if it is still too annoying. Sawstop took the color theme WAY too far here. I look forward to seeing how the DC shroud works, but this is an arbor nutsucker waiting to happen. What happens to the dust that gets past the DC shroud, how much dust will build up inside the cabinet, how hard will it be to get out? If the DC shroud is effective, it should keep all of the other parts cleaner for smooth operation and less wear. The large access door should allow enough access to service the saw, but it's under the extension table, so it still won't be easy. The belt access door seems appropriate, not sure about the single splined belt - seems a bit light. The bump switch is well located and a good size, after not much use, we should be able to easily shut off the saw, but it will be a while before we stop doing so inadvertently. The arbor/arbor nut wrenches are WAY TOO BIG, this will encourage overtightening and our ARBORS will be STRIPPED in no time. Are you reading this Steve? The fence is a biesmeyer clone - faces are replaceable with "keyhole slots" - this is ok, but I don't really feel that they are flat/secure with no way to tighten them. Rare earth magnets on the fence lever and dust shroud door are nice details, as is the "soft" fence handle. The "power disconect switch" is on the rear of the left side of the cabinet (beneath our sliding table) this is too hard to get to for routine blade changes etc... In order to get inside the cabinet to change the brake/make adjustments, the throat opening is larger than a unisaw's. This is ok access-wise, but having less of a smooth, flat tabletop can be problematic. The process to "by-pass" the sawstop machanism must be done each time the saw started in by-pass.- a pain if we're cutting a buch of aluminum all day.
issues- We occasionally used 8 1/4" thin kerf (3/64") blades for slotting and making scale lumber - sawstop requires 10" blades or 8" dados. Hmmm, if we use the dado brake and an 8-1/4" blade... We need to explain to 500 college students why and how the saws are different. Gloss black extension table? Seperate arbor nut/washer invites droppage into dust collection and "washerless" re-installation. (We had welded a washer to a nut to eliminate this on unisaws) I have to get rid of 2 old unisaws, 1 jet sliding table and 1 excalibur bladeguard. The height of the back fence rail makes it impossible to mount a flush outfeed table (same as biesmeyer). I re-drilled and lowered, now 1 of the doors doesn't open past he rail, arggggh.
SawStop has provided us with a spare brake cartridge, so we will be "test firing" a saw on Thursday, Jan 13th at 3:00pm. Your welcome to join us if your in the area (Minneapolis).
It seems that there are few reports of sawstops in action on the web, so I will try to post to rec.woodworking if anything of interest comes up.
Enough for now, smoke if you got em.
KG
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Thanks for taking the time to report to us.
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Wish I could. Would it be possible to take a video of the test and post?
I have had doubts that the speed at which the saw stop system responds is adequate for the level of protection that they claim. I assume you are going to use a hot dog or some such to test this thing. Consider the speed at which the "finger" is moving when it contacts the blade. I am curious if the system will be adequate for a finger approaching the blade at something like 2000 mm/sec (about 6.5 feet/sec) which is the hand speed constant used to calculate safe distances in automation equipment with electronic safe guarding.
In any case, thanks for the info and please post results.
Frank
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I believe in the real world you hand is moving no where near 4.5 MPH during any operation around a TS unless you are jerking you hand back.
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I can easily imagine your hand moving into the blade at that speed if it were to slip off of a push stick or similar.
todd
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Perhaps so and especially if you were not taking precautions against the possibility of your hand slipping off a push stick. Having been in a rather grizzly accident myself, I try to guard against that scenario also but accidents can still happen as no one is perfect 100% of the time.
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Leon wrote:

While I doubt that anyone would move wood through the saw that fast, if you hand slips or something startles you that's another story. 4.5 MPH is a fast walk--it's not hard to move your hand faster than that.
And according to Sawstop's own claims about stopping time, the blade would be 10mm (not quite half an inch) into your finger, which for most of us means your finger would be more off than on--it might be hanging together by a bone sliver and the flesh on one side but it will definitely not be in good shape.
--
--John
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Yes , true, some one is going to do that eventually.

I'll agree to that also although a 1/2 in deep cut is still pretty serious, think of how bad it would be if the blade continued to spin with out any type of stop. I can assure you that your reaction is not fast enough to stop pushing your hand or finger through. Been there done that with a blade that was coasting down to stop. I almost cut my thumb off at 2 places and untill I saw the blood was under the firm belief that I had a kick back.
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Leon wrote:

I don't know about your fingers but on mine it wouldn't be much worse. 1/2 inch in most if not all of the works would be severed and what's left would probably work about the same afterwards as if it had been completely off.

--
--John
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J. Clarke wrote:

Hmmm, I recall a woodworking journal publishing a test a couple of issues ago that included whaping chicken leg as fas as they could into the blade. It resouted in a small cut (1-2 stitch size).... pretty limited damage considering.
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Leon wrote:

I don't know 4.5MPH isn't all that fast -- about 6.6 feet per second. Slip/trip and fall while pushing a big 8 or 12 quarter boar and you could probably hit 6.6 fps into the blade. Heck a 6'6" guy can fall and hit his head be on the ground in less than a second -- that's an average of over 6fps. Little g is 9.8m/s^2 --- a gravity drop will give you about 27 fps after one second. It's not the intended operations around the saw that you have to worry about.
hex -30-
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6 1/2 feet per second? Man, I can't feed wood that fast on my table saw. I need a better table saw.
--

-Mike-
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On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:29:41 -0500, "Mike Marlow"

that's not the speed of the wood- it's the speed of your hand when it slips off of the wood and you lean in to catch yourself.
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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 14:57:29 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@all.costs wrote:

A superb visual example of that is watching the video clip used in Norm's safety speech on NYW the last several years. As he's feeding a piece through the router table (quite nicely held down with feather boards, by the way) his forward hand slips. I cringe every time I see it, even though there's no danger, as I've had my hand slip on a piece of work before, too, and I can well imagine that happening around a cutting implement.
By the way, I was taught long ago never to have one's hands over the rotating cutter head on a jointer when feeding stock through it for that very reason (the stock shooting out, not the hands slipping), yet I see virtually every TV wooddorker violating that every single time they joint.
- - LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
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I laugh every time I watch NYW and see the safety segment where Norm's hand slips. I always thought they could have chosen a better clip than that to show safety.
wrote:

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You have to be able to think.
What's important is not that there's a slip, it's that hand placement was safe. Good lesson to learn.
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When you do the "test run", consider pushing the hot dog "rapidly" into the blade, as described in some of the posts here. And report back the results. Inquiring fingers would like to know!!!!
Bob

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Other SawStop reports are starting to trickle in. Search for posts by "Vanguard" @ woodnet.net and "Dave Wright #2" (me) @ sawmillcreek.org. I also put up a detailed review with editing help from LRod @ woodcentral.com.
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=reviews&file=articles_484.shtml
I think the terse FWW by Kelly Mehler mentioned that he had swung a hotdog on a stick into the blade and only got a minor cut. I don't know how he set that up, but it sounds faster than my hand slipping off a pushstick. You have to see the demo in person to appreciate how quickly the blade brake acts. The most striking thing, for me at least, was the dead silence afterward. We're used to hearing a saw spool down after being turned off. During the demo the saw is chugging away normally and then pop the blade is gone and it's completely quiet. The demo I saw at IWF was with the hotdog being fed much more quickly than I've ever cut plywood.
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On 11 Jan 2005 15:00:31 -0500, dwright

I see I can only "click here to pre-order" on the website, though.
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dwright wrote:

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=reviews&file=articles_484.shtml
I find it difficult to believe that a hotdog swung into the sawblade would result in a minor cut. Swinging a hotdog at a completely stopped blade would likely result in the hotdog being cut in half. I know if I swung my hand into my stopped blade I would have a serious injury.
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