Other than ease of adjustments, appearance, and "cachet", why does an expensive plane work better?

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I think he makes most of his cash as "Conan"....

I think he makes most of his cash as "Conan".... :)
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wrote:

Unless I have a good plane, I can't work fast enough that I can afford to eat ! Hobbies are great, but try to do it for an income and you really start to hurt over anything that slows you down, or needs fiddling with instead of just making product for you.
-- Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
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On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 18:48:17 +0000, Andy Dingley

There's a big difference between rec.(recreational) woodworking, Andy...and woodworking to make a living.
And I'm not saying that there's not a difference in quality in ALL tools.
But I replied to Dave's post in light of our group's title.
To be quite honest, I very seldom use a plane. The last one I bought was about 40 years ago...and I haven't used it for a long time. Most of my projects preclude the need for a plane.
Unlike you, though, I don't do woodworking for a living. I *DO* use a router in my trade, though...almost 24hrs. a day. But it can't do any wood work. lol
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
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Trent wrote:

I'm honestly not trying to pick on you specifically, but I can't help but comment on what you wrote above. As a recreational woodworker, why would anyone want to buy tools that make it more difficult to enjoy their hobby? I can manage to make a new Stanley perform *just* *barely*, but why on earth would I want to when I can spend a bit more for a Veritas which will outperform it by light years, or I can go whole-hog and buy a L-N and enjoy the form+function aspect to its fullest.

What's the old saying ... "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"? All of my projects *require* the use of a plane. Rough wood has to be surfaced, dimensioned, smoothed, joined, etc. All of those are done with a specific plane.

And except for a corded drill, my routah is the only power tool I ever use in woodwrecking. But there are planes that do everything the routah does. :-)
Chuck Vance
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wrote:

Let me answer by giving you my personal reasons for buying the table saw that I did...
1. Economics. I couldn't afford $400-$500 or more for a saw...that I'll use occasionally. But TIME...I have plenty of time on my hands...to make jigs that can make the saw do more than it was originally intended. And my plan has worked well for me.
2. Space. I have a small work area in my basement. The smaller saw works well for me.
3. Portability. I wouldn't be able to get the saw down the basement without a whole lot of help. And then it would STAY there. I've been able to easily carry the saw out to the back lawn...to cut out there for remodeling projects.
4. The challenge! lol
1 & 4 would apply well to the purchase of a plane.

I do the same as you...I just don't use a plane. I use various other tools. I usually use my RotoMate for excess removal...along with my sander. Then there's my router, etc.

I have no doubt, Chuck. Even in my earlier days, I never did the level of planeing that I'm sure you and Charlie do.
But I still hold to my original post...which was directed to Dave, of course.
And its just opinion, nonetheless...as is your's opinion.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
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Trent wrote:

Fair enough. And I would say that #1 is false economy in the case of planes. Woodcraft carries the new Stanley planes, and a smoother is $59.99. The first step to make one of these guys work worth a d*mn is to buy an aftermarket iron. It will cost you upwards of $30 to get a good one. Of course, the plane still has those crappy plastic handles, so you'll want to get replacement wooden ones. That'll set you back another $20-30. Hmmm ... looks like we're already up to $100.
The problem is, we still will probably have to lap the sole (and hope that the improperly-seasoned casting will stay flat once we get it there), file the surface of the frog to level it, peen the pin for the lateral adjustment lever to tighten it up, etc.
And assuming you took all of those steps and set it up perfectly, you still aren't assured of ever getting it right the next time due to excessive slop and backlash in the depth adjustment mechanism.
So you're already out $100 and you'll struggle to get the plane to do what it is supposed to be designed to do. And guess what? There's no market for a slightly-used recent-vintage Stanley-Bailey. So you'll now need to eat the cost of that "plane" and go get you a real one.
As for enjoying "the challenge" ... no thanks. A challenge is only fun if you have any hope of achieving what you set out to do. Otherwise it's just beating your head against the wall. (FWIW, that's where you'll be tempted to throw your plane if you do get a new Stanley.)

But I could have sworn you said this earlier in this thread:
> A plane is simply a tool to fix specific errors or problems in > woodworking.

I expect that's true.
FWIW, Charlie isn't a neanderthal woodworker like myself. Also, he has many more years doing this stuff than I do. He's also a well-respected writer on many woodworking subjets. Given those facts, you might want to go back and read his response in this thread and reflect on it.

What is it with this "it was directed at Dave" stuff? It was posted to a *newsgroup*, a public forum. It is certainly fair game for discussion.

Yes, and I'll leave it to the astute reader to determine whose is more likely to be helpful ... or accurate.
Chuck Vance
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wrote:

FINALLY!! lol
I think we were both as helpful. After all, I sure in help he isn't gonna go out and buy a plane just based on what you and/or I say.
Accurate...I think we were both pretty accurate.
Nice chattin' with ya!
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
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Trent,
are you by any chance referring to the LOOONG thread last year about table saws where I was steered towards the PM, but I ended up with a Unisaw? :) The PM was nice, but NOT $600 more than the Uni. I love my Uni and I'm sure I would've liked the PM also. I got some reproachful remarks from the guys who KNEW which TS I SHOULD have bought.
dave
Trent wrote:

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wrote:

No...I wasn't, Dave. But you see that a lot in this group...and others, of course. I think its just human nature.
I've been posting in here for quite a few years...but I do it sporadically. Woodworking, I believe, is one of those areas where you can never know it all...no matter how knowledgeable and experienced you are. So I jump back in here to learn...and lurk mostly.
A couple of good examples...RotoZip's...and Kreg pocket jointers. I'm pretty sure I got those ideas from reading this group...so I tried both of them. AFAIC, they're the current way of doing things that were done a different way at the beginning. I no longer find a need for a plane...and I no longer find a need for biscuits and clamps. Not NEVER...but very, very seldom.
My opinion that I gave to you was as a hobbyiest...and in general, I guess. I actually enjoy not buying top of the line...for most things. Nor can I afford most top of the line items. There are MANY folks on here that have MUCH more experience with planes...and with woodworking in general.
But I HAVE been doing woodworking for over 50 years. There ain't a whole lot that I haven't done...or can't do.
Excitedly enough, I've got a whole lot to learn though! lol
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
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50 years! Wow! I feel like time is running out for me to learn everything I want to, at my age. That's why I ask so many frickin' questions, and buy books on WW, and have subscriptions to WW mags. I've learned a TON of stuff from the folks here nice enough to share their experience. Seeing as the purpose of this NG is to share ideas, it amazes me when a diehard few vilify me for asking newbie questions. I go out to the shop for a while, then check back here periodically during the day. Right now I should be cutting out the modesty panel rails/stiles for my desk...
I too, love my Kreg jigs. I like it for face frames and I've used it on miscellaneous projects for the shop. It works pretty well with 2x4's like when I built a floor to ceiling enclosure for sheet goods.
dave
Trent wrote:

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Trent wrote:

OK, but last time I checked it looks like he's planning to go out and buy the plane I recommended.

Same here. Just be warned that I'll be keeping an eye out for you, so don't go making any more of those silly claims that a new POS Stanley is as good as a Veritas. :-)
Chuck Vance
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wrote:

What's their hobby though ? Making things, or collecting old tools and persuading them back into life ?
Lets be honest here, an awful lot of people collect lots of tools yet make very little with them. It's a different hobby.
-- Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
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Andy Dingley wrote:

Oh, absolutely. But in the context of the thread, do you really think a collector is going to go out and stock up on new Stanleys? :-)
And as far as the collector goes, the original question is moot anyway. The collector places value on a plane for all sorts of reasons, but plane performance isn't likely to enter into it.
Chuck Vance Just say (tmPL): Well, there was that one guy who was selling his planes on *b*y by advertising them as the absolute *worst* planes ever made. :-)
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wrote:

A little off-topic here, Chuck, but...
They're starting to collect...and SELL on Ebay...the FREE discs that AOL has been giving out over the years. And they're gettin' good money for them!!
Go figure!
So, if you've got any of those crumby Stanley's left, I'd hang on to them...or give them to your grand kids. They'll probably be worth big bucks one of these days.
As long as you don't screw them up, change them, and make them cut better! :)
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
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wrote:

Better than that.
_I'm_ getting good money for them ! 8-)
Seems the UK ones were harder to find. I just had to dust them off from my collection of "That's damn good polycarbonate that, it'll come in handy some day".
-- Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
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Why are you responding, much less trying to reason with, this troll. Most on here killed filed this idiot long ago. I guess what I need is a filter that will catch anything related to this fool.
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Trent wrote:

I have a lot of Veritable brand tools in my shop, like the Veritable jointing fence I made out of angle iron.
The old timers and I would get along fine.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan < snipped-for-privacy@users.sourceforge.net>
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If you take two planes with the same cutting geometry then the differences would be due to differences in precision, mass, and blade metalurgy. A lack of precision leads to the blade being able to move which can lead to chatter and other maladies that would effect the quality of cut. For example, a well tuned Bailey is still a fairly imprecise instrument compared to a well executed Norris; mainly due to design. Does it make any difference in use? Maybe, maybe not - depends on the board.
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Thanks to all who responded to my questions. I'm going to give the Veritas Low Angle Smooth Plane a try.
Chuck and Trent: I didn't mean to spark a controversy. Shake hands and call it a day. :)
dave
Bay Area Dave wrote:

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wrote:

Its just friendly bantering, Dave. The real fun is in the woodworking...not in this computer junk! lol If they didn't make me a good living, I'd throw them all out the window!
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
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