Other than ease of adjustments, appearance, and "cachet", why does an expensive plane work better?

[Charlie Self]

Wrong in your first statement, so wrong in your second. A plane, depending on style, can do a great many things beyond fixing problems or errors. In many cases, a good rabbeting plane is the absolute fastest and easiest way to form rabbets. Smoothing some woods is far easier with a good plane than with any other tool. At one time, making molding was the province of planes. It still can be, and is especially useful on small jobs where setting up for power molding cutting is a hassle. You're done with the job using planes before you can even finish bolting down the shaper cutters, or before you can even find the right router bit.

A plane is one helluva lot more than a tool to fix mistakes.

While I'm not much on mysticism of any sort, you might want to borrow and use a couple of good planes to make a small box or bookcase, to gain a feel for the wood that you cannot gain with power tools. That's not mysticism, though, it's simply removing one layer between you and the natural material.

Charlie Self

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." Thomas J. Watson

[Conan the Librarian]

Yeah, I've got their low-angle block plane too. It's a very nice little plane and extremely handy to have around the shop. Knowing what I know now, if I could only have one low-angle block, I'd probably opt for that plane.

I thought about getting the add-ons for the plane, but then I thought about what I use a block plane for, and 99% of the time it's going to be a one-handed operation anyway. Besides, I've already got a low-angle jack, a couple of low-angle smoothers, an old Stanley #65 and an old #60-1/2.

Chuck Vance Just say (tmPL) No, I don't have a plane problem.

[Conan The Librarian]

I addressed that in the next paragraph. See below.

And if you really believe that a "difference in ... quality" "really is no difference", then I certainly don't want to be the recipient of whatever your work product is.

I don't even know where to start. Maybe just a question: Why do you think that there are planes that are referred to as "smoothers", "jointers", "rabbet planes", "plow planes", "scrub planes", "molding planes", "dado planes", "router planes", "chisel planes", etc., etc.?

The second clause in that sentence doesn't parse.

Let's review: You said you have a cheap saw and you have built all sorts of jigs to make it work well. Then you say the quality is equal to anything out there. So which is it? Is the quality just as good, or have you managed to cobble together enough jigs to make it functional?

Ah, but you are prepared to tell us that there is no differnece between high and low-end planes.

Thanks, I'll give your opinion all the consideration that it deserves.

The Stanley I was referring to is a new plane. Even though it's five years old, it is the model that is currently being sold as the "contractor grade" Stanley.

BTW, that plane is in a lot better shape than it was when I bought it. I lapped the sole, tightened the yoke and lateral lever, and upgraded to a Hock. It's still a piece of garbage.

I'm not sure if yer being sarcastic here or not, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just move on.

I may have misunderstood, but it appears to me that when discussing the merits of a *new* cheaper plane vs. the high-end ones, it is valid to include the current Stanley model.

There are also degrees of quality even among perfectly useable planes. If you are interested, just check Google for discussions about Records, Cliftons, Veritas, Lie-Nielsen, Knight, Clark & Williams planes to name a few.

Plug the following into Google and all will become clear:

Chuck Vance

[Conan The Librarian]

I'm honestly not trying to pick on you specifically, but I can't help but comment on what you wrote above. As a recreational woodworker, why would anyone want to buy tools that make it more difficult to enjoy their hobby? I can manage to make a new Stanley perform *just*

*barely*, but why on earth would I want to when I can spend a bit more for a Veritas which will outperform it by light years, or I can go whole-hog and buy a L-N and enjoy the form+function aspect to its fullest.

What's the old saying ... "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail"? All of my projects *require* the use of a plane. Rough wood has to be surfaced, dimensioned, smoothed, joined, etc. All of those are done with a specific plane.

And except for a corded drill, my routah is the only power tool I ever use in woodwrecking. But there are planes that do everything the routah does. :-)

Chuck Vance

[Trent©]

Personally, I still hold by my original statement, Charlie.

From what I've read in your posts, I think your level of expertise in woodworking is more advanced than most.

But I find very little use for a plane with today's modern technology.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

[Trent©]

You can if you want to, of course. But it wasn't DIRECTED to you. lol

Its obvious you have a different opinion...and that's fine. That's what this group is all about. We all have different experiences...i.e., different opinions.

Its been used.

:)

I wasn't. But I can see where your attitude might have thought that.

Yes...I think you did.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

[Trent©]

Let me answer by giving you my personal reasons for buying the table saw that I did...

1. Economics. I couldn't afford 0-0 or more for a saw...that I'll use occasionally. But TIME...I have plenty of time on my hands...to make jigs that can make the saw do more than it was originally intended. And my plan has worked well for me.
2. Space. I have a small work area in my basement. The smaller saw works well for me.
3. Portability. I wouldn't be able to get the saw down the basement without a whole lot of help. And then it would STAY there. I've been able to easily carry the saw out to the back lawn...to cut out there for remodeling projects.
4. The challenge! lol

1 & 4 would apply well to the purchase of a plane.

I do the same as you...I just don't use a plane. I use various other tools. I usually use my RotoMate for excess removal...along with my sander. Then there's my router, etc.

I have no doubt, Chuck. Even in my earlier days, I never did the level of planeing that I'm sure you and Charlie do.

But I still hold to my original post...which was directed to Dave, of course.

And its just opinion, nonetheless...as is your's opinion.

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

[Bay Area Dave]

Thanks to all who responded to my questions. I'm going to give the Veritas Low Angle Smooth Plane a try.

Chuck and Trent: I didn't mean to spark a controversy. Shake hands and call it a day. :)

dave

Bay Area Dave wrote:

[Conan The Librarian]

Right, it was directed to a Usenet *newsgroup*. If it was just for BAD's consumption, then you should have e-mailed him directly.

You offered your advice on a public forum as if you had some knowledge of what you were discussing (i.e., no difference in cheap vs. expensive planes, except for quality ... whatever that means). I wanted to make it clear for others who might happen to stumble across your statements, that it appears you don't know what you're talking about.

Yep, that's exactly what it's all about. Some us have opinions based on experience, and some of us ... well, exactly *what* is your experience with planes, anyway? :-)

Semantics. It's the new model of Stanley plane. My L-N plane is as old as it is.

Maybe so. I thought he wanted advice from someone who had something useful to offer. Perhaps he wanted to hear from you instead.

Chuck Vance

[Conan The Librarian]

Fair enough. And I would say that #1 is false economy in the case of planes. Woodcraft carries the new Stanley planes, and a smoother is $59.99. The first step to make one of these guys work worth a d*mn is to buy an aftermarket iron. It will cost you upwards of $30 to get a good one. Of course, the plane still has those crappy plastic handles, so you'll want to get replacement wooden ones. That'll set you back another $20-30. Hmmm ... looks like we're already up to $100.

The problem is, we still will probably have to lap the sole (and hope that the improperly-seasoned casting will stay flat once we get it there), file the surface of the frog to level it, peen the pin for the lateral adjustment lever to tighten it up, etc.

And assuming you took all of those steps and set it up perfectly, you still aren't assured of ever getting it right the next time due to excessive slop and backlash in the depth adjustment mechanism.

So you're already out $100 and you'll struggle to get the plane to do what it is supposed to be designed to do. And guess what? There's no market for a slightly-used recent-vintage Stanley-Bailey. So you'll now need to eat the cost of that "plane" and go get you a real one.

As for enjoying "the challenge" ... no thanks. A challenge is only fun if you have any hope of achieving what you set out to do. Otherwise it's just beating your head against the wall. (FWIW, that's where you'll be tempted to throw your plane if you do get a new Stanley.)

But I could have sworn you said this earlier in this thread:

I expect that's true.

FWIW, Charlie isn't a neanderthal woodworker like myself. Also, he has many more years doing this stuff than I do. He's also a well-respected writer on many woodworking subjets. Given those facts, you might want to go back and read his response in this thread and reflect on it.

What is it with this "it was directed at Dave" stuff? It was posted to a *newsgroup*, a public forum. It is certainly fair game for discussion.

Yes, and I'll leave it to the astute reader to determine whose is more likely to be helpful ... or accurate.

Chuck Vance

[Trent©]

Its just friendly bantering, Dave. The real fun is in the woodworking...not in this computer junk! lol If they didn't make me a good living, I'd throw them all out the window!

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

[Trent©]

FINALLY!! lol

I think we were both as helpful. After all, I sure in help he isn't gonna go out and buy a plane just based on what you and/or I say.

Accurate...I think we were both pretty accurate.

Nice chattin' with ya!

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

[Bay Area Dave]

:) Trent, I'm so glad I don't pound a keyboard all day for a living any longer. I used to work with software. Yuck! that's why many of my posts are so terse. I sit down for a while to ask a few questions, and catch up, then I'm out doing something else. pc's are necessary evils in my book.

rant off.

dave

Trent© wrote:

[Bay Area Dave]

Trent,

are you by any chance referring to the LOOONG thread last year about table saws where I was steered towards the PM, but I ended up with a Unisaw? :) The PM was nice, but NOT $600 more than the Uni. I love my Uni and I'm sure I would've liked the PM also. I got some reproachful remarks from the guys who KNEW which TS I SHOULD have bought.

dave

Trent© wrote:

[Andy Dingley]

What's their hobby though ? Making things, or collecting old tools and persuading them back into life ?

Lets be honest here, an awful lot of people collect lots of tools yet make very little with them. It's a different hobby.

-- Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

[Conan The Librarian]

Exactly. This has been just a little good-natured taunting like you might do with a friend on a basketball court. We might approach woodwrecking in a totally different way, but we both enjoy it or we wouldn't be here arguing about it.

BTW, you're still wrong. :-)

Chuck Vance

[Trent©]

No...I wasn't, Dave. But you see that a lot in this group...and others, of course. I think its just human nature.

I've been posting in here for quite a few years...but I do it sporadically. Woodworking, I believe, is one of those areas where you can never know it all...no matter how knowledgeable and experienced you are. So I jump back in here to learn...and lurk mostly.

A couple of good examples...RotoZip's...and Kreg pocket jointers. I'm pretty sure I got those ideas from reading this group...so I tried both of them. AFAIC, they're the current way of doing things that were done a different way at the beginning. I no longer find a need for a plane...and I no longer find a need for biscuits and clamps. Not NEVER...but very, very seldom.

My opinion that I gave to you was as a hobbyiest...and in general, I guess. I actually enjoy not buying top of the line...for most things. Nor can I afford most top of the line items. There are MANY folks on here that have MUCH more experience with planes...and with woodworking in general.

But I HAVE been doing woodworking for over 50 years. There ain't a whole lot that I haven't done...or can't do.

Excitedly enough, I've got a whole lot to learn though! lol

Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

[Conan The Librarian]

OK, but last time I checked it looks like he's planning to go out and buy the plane I recommended.

Same here. Just be warned that I'll be keeping an eye out for you, so don't go making any more of those silly claims that a new POS Stanley is as good as a Veritas. :-)

Chuck Vance

[Conan The Librarian]

Oh, absolutely. But in the context of the thread, do you really think a collector is going to go out and stock up on new Stanleys? :-)

And as far as the collector goes, the original question is moot anyway. The collector places value on a plane for all sorts of reasons, but plane performance isn't likely to enter into it.

Chuck Vance Just say (tmPL): Well, there was that one guy who was selling his planes on *b*y by advertising them as the absolute *worst* planes ever made. :-)

[Bay Area Dave]

50 years! Wow! I feel like time is running out for me to learn everything I want to, at my age. That's why I ask so many frickin' questions, and buy books on WW, and have subscriptions to WW mags. I've learned a TON of stuff from the folks here nice enough to share their experience. Seeing as the purpose of this NG is to share ideas, it amazes me when a diehard few vilify me for asking newbie questions. I go out to the shop for a while, then check back here periodically during the day. Right now I should be cutting out the modesty panel rails/stiles for my desk...

I too, love my Kreg jigs. I like it for face frames and I've used it on miscellaneous projects for the shop. It works pretty well with 2x4's like when I built a floor to ceiling enclosure for sheet goods.

dave

Trent© wrote: