OT: How to Save Social Security

Page 1 of 8  
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030600040902080809030106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I'm starting an OT discussion because I want to follow up on some things that were mentioned here.
To understand SS problems you have to understand the national debt. It is listed as 7 trillion dollars, but that is not the whole truth. Only 60% of it is "debt owed to the public". This is money owed to buyers of regular government bonds [individuals, retirement plans, corporations, foreign nations] and this debt must be paid or we are a bankkrupt country.
40% is "intra governmental holdings" and it is comprised of money 'borrowed' from SS, the railroad retirement fund, government workers pension fund and the military pension fund. Each year Congress 'borrows' the surplus from these funds and gives them special government bonds that were created for this purpose. The debt owed to SS alone is now just about 1.5 trillion dollars. These bonds pay an average rate of 2.2% and they are not available to the public. Every year Congress has to pay interest on the bonds, but no money is exchanged. Congress authorizes more bonds in the amount of the interest due, the money stays in the treasury and Congress spends it.
There is no law that says Congress must pay their debt to SS or any of the other pension funds. Congress created this situation and Congress can simply wipe the books clean if they wish. You can only depend on the honesty and personal integrity of members of Congress to pay back the money they owe to SS....................
Here's what I think should be done - Congress should issue more regular government bonds to fund the transition to privatization for younger workers. The money generated will automatically be deducted from the debt owed to SS and the "intra governmenta holdings" will now be reduced by that amount.
Let's say one trillion dollars has to be raised. Our total national debt will remain the same because one trillion dollars will be subtracted from "intra governmental holdings" and added to the "debt owed to the public" which means it will then be about 5.2 trillion dollars.
We can handle a 5.2 trillion debt that has to be paid. Think back over your own life. When you bought a house, financed a car, had some charge accounts to pay for the new baby, etc, as well as paying property taxes and other obligations due to government, what percent of your income was being used to pay your debts? Make the comparison and I think you will see that our government with a 5.2 trillion dollar debt is better off than you were.
Privatization is the only way to keep the polititians hands away from your money ...............unless you are one of those Democrat Liberals who believe that SS should be a re-distribution of wealth scheme.
Stewart
--------------030600040902080809030106 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> <title></title> I'm starting an OT discussion because I want&nbsp; to follow up on some things that were mentioned here.<br> <br> To understand SS problems you have to understand the national debt. It is listed as 7 trillion dollars, but that is not the whole truth. Only 60% of it is "debt owed to the public". This is money owed to buyers of regular government bonds [individuals, retirement plans, corporations, foreign nations] and this debt must be paid or we are a bankkrupt country.<br> <br> 40% is "intra governmental holdings" and it is comprised of money 'borrowed' from SS, the railroad retirement fund, government workers pension fund and the military pension fund. Each year Congress 'borrows' the surplus from these funds and gives them special government bonds that were created for this purpose. The debt owed to SS alone is now just about 1.5 trillion dollars. These bonds pay an average rate of 2.2% and they are not available to the public. Every year Congress has to pay interest on the bonds, but no money is exchanged. Congress authorizes more bonds in the amount of the interest due, the money stays in the treasury and Congress spends it.<br> <br> There is no law that says Congress must pay their debt to SS or any of the other pension funds. Congress created this situation and Congress can simply wipe the books clean if they wish. You can only depend on the honesty and personal integrity of members of Congress to pay back the money they owe to SS....................<br> <br> Here's what I think should be done - Congress should issue more&nbsp; regular government bonds&nbsp; to fund&nbsp; the transition to&nbsp; privatization for younger workers.&nbsp; The money generated will automatically be deducted from&nbsp; the debt owed to SS and the "intra governmenta&nbsp; holdings" will now be reduced by that amount. <br> <br> Let's say one trillion dollars has to be raised. Our total national debt will remain the same because one trillion dollars will be subtracted&nbsp; from "intra governmental holdings" and added to the "debt owed to the public" which means it will then be about 5.2 trillion dollars.<br> <br> We can handle a 5.2&nbsp; trillion debt that has to be paid. Think back over your own life. When you bought a house, financed a car, had some charge accounts to pay for the new baby, etc,&nbsp; as well as paying property taxes and other obligations due to government, what percent of your income was being used to pay your debts? Make the comparison and&nbsp; I think you will see that our government with a 5.2 trillion dollar debt is better off than you were.<br> <br> Privatization is the only way to keep the polititians hands away from your money ...............unless you are one of those&nbsp; Democrat Liberals who believe that SS should be a re-distribution of wealth scheme. <br> <br> Stewart<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> </body> </html>
--------------030600040902080809030106--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
<DIV>I'm starting an OT discussion because I want&nbsp; to follow up on some things that were mentioned here.<BR><BR></DIV> <DIV>Privitazation didn't work in Britian and other countries.&nbsp; What seems to happen is</DIV> <DIV>that the management "fees" become excessive, and you're basically at the mercy</DIV> <DIV>of the brokers.&nbsp; Long term investment seems to be a good idea, but for someone</DIV> <DIV>in their 50s the timeframe is way too short to ensure any reasonable longterm</DIV> <DIV>accumulation.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Pete</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
No crisis or ANY kind until 2042, per Social Security's own recent pessimistic study. No "saving" of it needed, just small tax changes.
--
Please REPLY to yonny at att,net as the msn address is a spam trap !

Thanks,
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
hagstar wrote:

Hagstar,
I think I screwed up. I think it was because someone said I wasn't posting in plain text. I was in the habit of typing in wordpad and copying and pasting in e-mails. I posted to both RAR+P and rec.woodworking rather than going through the trouble of doing them separately. Now replies from here are showing there. First time I've done it and it won't happen again. I could let it go and the groups could get in a fight and have a duel with woodworking tools. They have bigger and nastier tools so I'll take care of the problem each time I reply.
Anyway, the crises starts in 2018 and that will be after more money has been voted to meet the public clamor for more medical coverage. With medical costs rising 12% a year there is no way Congress will meet its full obligations to SS after 2018.
Stewart
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Worth reading, if you really are wondering where the SS funds are going..
http://slate.msn.com/id/2093707
This problem was addressed in 1983, and here's the results. What "lockbox"???
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I can't save Social Security. I don't receive enough to save any.
Maybe you concur.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020201010703000708030709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Uncle Peter wrote:

<div>I'm starting an OT discussion because I want&nbsp; to follow up on some things that were mentioned here.<br> <br> </div> <div>Privitazation didn't work in Britian and other countries.&nbsp; What seems to happen is</div> <div>that the management "fees" become excessive, and you're basically at the mercy</div> <div>of the brokers.&nbsp; Long term investment seems to be a good idea, but for someone</div> <div>in their 50s the timeframe is way too short to ensure any reasonable longterm</div> <div>accumulation.</div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div><font size="2">Pete</font></div> </blockquote> </blockquote> Pete,<br> <br> <blockquote type="cite">Privitazation didn't work in Britian and other countries. <br> </blockquote> Not true. Only in England has there been a problem. Companies managing the system were gouging so much that they were forced to pay back 20 billion dollars. Chile has the model system where workers have 22 different plans they can invest in and they can change from one plan to another anytime they want to. All they have to do is make a phone call.<br> <br> I'll make you a bet. I bet you can't name one union pension fund that isn't privatized. And I'll bet you double that you can't name one city, county, or state pension plan that isn't privatized.<br> <br> Stewart<br> <br> <br> <br> </body> </html>
--------------020201010703000708030709--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
" I'll make you a bet. I bet you can't name one union pension fund that isn't privatized. And I'll bet you double that you can't name one city, county, or state pension plan that isn't privatized.
Stewart
Railroad http://www.rrb.gov /
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
says...

I'll go you one better than the above .... I'll bet that of all the Union and city,county,state whatever pension plans.... that you can NOT find one that has earned the same lousy rate of return that the SS plan has received.... it earns something in the area of 2% ....
Thats one of the main reasons the blasted thing is going broke slowly.. plus of course... we the american people ... don't have 4 kids per family anymore... so workforce isn't an ever increasing thing like it was in the beginning of the SS plan ...
Peter.... U aren;t in the game anyway... none of us that are 50 or over will ever be eligible to get into the new game if and when they decide what the new game will be ... its for the younger folks .... not us old geezzers
Ya know why Congress is so much against this "Privitization Plan" so much?.... It is because the SS plan is where they have been all these years borrowing money to pay for all the crap that congress passes .... so our own Gubmint is paying that lousy 2% to the SS fund... which means that YOUR TAXES are really paying it.... so that makes it doubly stupid to have the SS plan like it is now...
Bet if your congressment had to live on SS income plan... that they might then have real incentive to fix it... John k9uwa
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
message

Don't affect me. I only paid into social security for a few years, and I have a federal pension. But, what should be noted is that when Social Security no longer can meet payments, by law, the payments will be reduced. There is no guaranteed furture payment rate.
Personally, raising taxes is distasteful. It will increase for employers as well as workers--equally--and that means more work sent overseas.
Taxing about 90K income is simply redistribution of wealth. Raising the retirement age? Again? No thanks. People should be allowed to retire and enjoy it, while they still have their health.
John had it right, social security was invested in Federal notes, horrible interest rates compared to the market long term.
Pete
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:29:07 -0500, Uncle Peter wrote:

What he had right is that the excess above what was required to pay current SS recipients was invested in government notes. When the time comes that current collections don't meet recipients requirements, my kid/grandkids and your kids/grandkids will not only get to pay whatever SS taxes are in effect at that time, but they will get to pay an increased income tax to redeem the government securities to pay the trust fund + interest for a second time as the first excess payment was spent on us to falsely inflate general revenue and falsely give the appearance of limiting the current year deficit. I'm sure they will look back on us with fondness for spending the original SS trust fund on ourselves and passing on the debt to them.
- Doug
--

To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard)


Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Doug Winterburn wrote:

Millard Fillmore, Rutherford B. Hayes, Herbert Hoover, and Warren G. Harding- step back, and let the man go through.......
--
Please REPLY to yonny at att,net as the msn address is a spam trap !

Thanks,
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
John Goller, k9uwa /W4 Snowbird wrote:

Actually that has very little to do with it. The real problem is that people just aren't dying at the age they are supposed to. DEATH is what has kept Social Security going all these years. Back in the old days, most people would die within a couple of years after retirement, and they usually retired at 65. Now, a lot more people are living into their 80s and 90s, and some of them are retiring at 55.

Privatization is an idea that is certainly worth debating, but the plan that Bush is floating is a dog that won't hunt. Saddling our children with an additional 1.5 trillion dollars in debt (The amount needed as a stopgap for revenues to social security reduced from privatization) for the sins of flawed policies that will never benefit them is simply immoral.
The privatization plan itself has SCAM written all over it. It really amounts to a lot of money going to business interests on Wall street....I've no doubt there are going to be aspects to the plan that will encourage a lot of churn, churn, churn to jack up those commissions.
Earth to Bush and Congress: I don't WANT Social Security! I don't need Social Security! Just give me all the damn money NOW and let me invest it AS I CHOOSE. I'll bet I can do it better than you can, and If I don't, it's my own damn fault and nobody else's. The focus of this debate is always conveniently centered on what is needed to save Social Security. It's high time that people in high places started raising the question of whether it's worth saving at all.

Around here, the people I know who collect Social Security use it as an additional source of income to buy such things as dog food and movie tickets. That's essentially all it's good for these days (other than Medicare, which is another train wreck waiting to happen). NO ONE that I know uses it as a primary source of income. Those that believe you can actually live on those payments probably also believes that deficits are good for the economy, the Iraqis will pay us back all the money we've spent over there, and that the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy really exist.
-Scott
--
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE AT THE EMAIL ADDRESS ABOVE!
Instead, go to the following web page to get my real email address:
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
says...

Perhaps you could, as could I. But that does not address the need for a forced savings plan of some type for those too poor to divert income from present necessities to future ones.
And the average under-40 type in this country, poor or not, doesn't think much about the future. That's human nature.
Somehow I can't see us letting all those people starve when they get too old to work.
Of course, we could always bring back the poorhouse.
--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:49:14 -0800, Scott W. Harvey wrote:
[snip]

Errrr, I think you just described a total 100% privatization plan.
- Doug
--

To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard)


Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Scott W. Harvey wrote:

Maybe so, but if you invest and lose it all, and wind up flat broke, retired in poor health and can't work, will you expect the government to help you out?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Cmd Buzz Corey wrote:

No way.....I've never taken a government handout for anything, ever. The closest I've ever come to that has been a student loan (which I paid off in full long ago). If I wind up destitute, it's probably going to be because I did something really stupid with money, and I generally don't do anything like that.
If government handouts are to be given out to anyone, it should be to folks who are in dire straits through no fault of their own (severely handicapped folks or their families, for instance). I'm a liberal, but the ridiculousness of relying on the government to do anything should be obvious to anyone with a pulse.
I would say the point is moot anyway. By the time I reach retirement age, I think the government is probably going to be more insolvent than I could ever dream of being- and I'm an optimist!
-Scott
--
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE AT THE EMAIL ADDRESS ABOVE!
Instead, go to the following web page to get my real email address:
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

something stupid like trust your company and invest in enron for example? something stupid like the country goes to war, killing the economy and draining your pocketbook? oh i see, you have full control over everything.
but just in case, let me know if this happens. ill donate the free bullet to solve your problem since you offer no other alternatives.
oh if it were only so simple.
randy
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

to
do
everything.
Donate a 6V6GTA so my Airline will have it's GT back and I can fix BOTH of them. Extremely simple.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:49:14 -0800, "Scott W. Harvey"

Social Security is, to a large extent, a transfer of money from black males to white females. A large percentage of black males do not live long enought to collect what they have paid in, while a large percentage of white females live long enough to collect very much more than is covered by what they have paid in.
The first social security recipient, a female, paid in $24, and received $42,000 in payments.
Brian McAllister
Sarasota, Florida
email bkm at oldtech dot net snipped-for-privacy@hope.thespambots.die
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.