OT dangerous dogs

[Dave Hinz]

You would rather than an armed criminal be safe, and that a homeowner be in danger?

Whose side are you on, Bob?

Yes, yes, we've heard that argument here too. When Florida was (one of?) the first state to pass laws where law-abiding citizens could carry concealed weapons, the hue and cry was mighty, about how "blood will run in the streets", "the Gunshine State" and all that. Not surprisingly (to me), when non-criminals were allowed to arm themselves, the criminals found other things to do. Violent crime went down in Florida, just as it has gone down in _every other state_ with CCW laws.

Oh - and I've driven in England. I found the drivers to be pretty good, especially in the "be in the proper lane on the motorway, depending on your speed". I think that maybe your assumption that your contrymen can't be trusted with deadly force, is unfair. A car, after all, is deadly force. If they're not ramming each other on the M25, they probably wouldn't be shooting each other, either.

[Duane Bozarth]

Me too...especially as compared to...oh, say Hotlanta as only one example...

[badger]

No it wouldn't, stop beliving those who wish to control you (and me) and to do so need you unable to resist whatever they foist upon you.

Niel, UK.

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. Robert A. Heinlein

[badger]

no where near as many as there once were

[Larry Jaques]

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:53:34 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Bob Martin quickly quoth:

What you fail to recognize is that once you own a gun and have learned to shoot and maintain it, you also have gained a hell of lot more respect for them. Again, look at the stats. Gun owners as a group, especially those with concealed weapons permits, are the sanest, most law-abiding folks you'll ever meet.

It's criminals who do the drive-by shootings and road-rage killing, Bob, not law-abiding citizens and neighbors.

If you're not just some anti-gun nut and do want more info, I'll give you some cites for books and websites for more real information. Just ask.

[CW]

Some years ago when Florida and a number of other states passed carry laws many people got the impression that that was some kind of first. Near as I know, it has always been legal in Alaska, Arizona and I'm sure other states. I know from first hand experience that carry licenses have always been available in Washington. I've had a CCW for 24 years. I've never had a need to use it nor has anyone I know. It would seem that the people with the CCW are less likely to get into a bad situation in the first place. I think this is do to those individuals being more aware of their surroundings and knowing where not to be.

[Bob Martin]

Please don't be so condescending. I served four years in the RAF and was trained on all sorts of weapons and I was also a member of a pistol club for quite a while. I'll say it once then I'm out of here - I do not want to live in a country where guns are freely available - and 90-95% of Brits agree with me.

[Kevin Craig]

That explains why they stay in Britain, where guns are freely available to criminals, but forbidden to the law-abiding.

And it also explains why the Brits who disagree are emigrating.

Kevin

[Upscale]

But the fact is that you are living in a country where guns are easily available if not freely available. In Britain and Canada, illegal handguns can be obtained for relatively small sums of money. In Toronto, Canada this year, we've had more gun violence than ever before. Getting a permit to own a handgun is pretty difficult here, but that hasn't stopped the escalation of shootings. I think most Canadians believe that guns are finding their way up here from the US.

[Doug Miller]

Then I guess you should leave Britain. Fact is, where you live, guns are readily available to the criminal element. Here in the US, they're readily available to everyone.

I like our way better.

[Doug Miller]

It was, in a way: states that had previously prohibited concealed-carry began to allow it.

Yep. But a number of states that had (a long time ago) permitted concealed-carry have since banned it. Florida is AFAIK the first to undo the ban.

[Upscale]

I can't agree with you. The US and Canada are close enough in lifestyles that you can compare. Your readily available guns compared to our not as readily available guns, the percentage of your crime and murder rates with a gun being involved are much higher than what we have here in Canada.

How do you rationalize that your way is better?

[Dave Hinz]

Larry is hardly being condescending.

And yet, you prefer to have criminals armed while good people are not. Very strange.

[Dave Hinz]

It was one of the first to go from oppressive to sane. As you say, others never went to "oppressive" in the first place.

How much gun violence is there in Alaska?

It's a self-selecting population, to be sure, who becomes CCW certified. I see it as little different from learning CPR, or how to run an automatic defib - the few people who do, benefit all those who don't. Odds are that if you do need someone with the appropriate training, they might be around, which is better than knowing that they won't, or can't.

[Larry Jaques]

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:31:26 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Bob Martin quickly quoth:

So sorry. I added that statement in case you -weren't- an anti-gun nut.

OK, it's your decision. Enjoy the repercussions since you're living with them!

[no(SPAM)vasys]

I've had a New York State permit to carry concealed for over 25 years?

[Doug Miller]

Hellooooo.... I was comparing the US to the UK. But since you brought it up...

That depends on how you measure. The rate of firearm ownership is much lower in Canada than in the US, and although the crime and murder rates per *capita* are higher in the US, the rates per *firearm* are significantly higher in Canada.

Canadians who possess guns are more likely to use them in committing crimes than are Americans who possess guns. How is *your* way better?

[Doug Miller]

Did NY at one time ban CCW? Read what I wrote, please.

[Upscale]

Absolute and complete garbage. Pull that one out of your ass Doug?

Of course. Most law abiding Canadians don't have guns so it makes sense that the criminal element who do have guns are more likely to use them.

[Doug Miller]

Actually, it's true, and you have no idea what you're talking about.

per capita in Canada: 0.25 Guns per capita in the U.S.: 0.82 Firearms death rate per 100K population: 4.3 in Canada, 11.4 in the U.S.

Yes, folks, that's right: with 3.3 times as many firearms per capita as Canada, the United States has only 2.7 times as many firearm *deaths* per capita.

Other interesting statistics from that site:

27.3% of Canadian homicides were committed with firearms, versus 66% in the United States -- but, on average, 25% of Canadians own firearms, versus 82% in the United States. Clearly, of the two, _Canada_ is the one with a firearm violence problem.

And even more interesting, nearly half (46%) of Canadian firearm homicides were committed with handguns. I thought that Canadian law made handgun ownership very difficult?

And this is better exactly how?