OT: As if THS is news.....

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"Max" wrote

Don't look now, but most of the folks in this declining county have a similar attitude these days. Not surprising, the leading adjective.
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Max wrote:

5.85 an hour Federally. Some states have set it higher.

Who said anything about "married and had a family to support"? Single people like to sleep dry and have full bellies too you know.

Never heard of that one.

No, actually I hadn't.

I'm not quite clear on how having just gotten out of prison equates to poverty.

Why would I?

And people paid you for these in the 21st century?

Imagine how depressing it is for someone actually living that life.
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(Taking Max aside for a little friendly advice... Dude... see this wall here? Now go smack your head against it till it bleeds. That is what 'discussing' things with Clarke gets you... a head ache. Nothing more. You are wasting your time.)
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On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:30:53 -0800 (PST), Robatoy

Thanks R, I needed that. My head is already bleeding from that endeavour.
Maybe it's time to get off the free newsreader and get one with a plonking feature. Spell check would be nice too, I often embarrass myself...........
Frank
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Frank Boettcher wrote:

Frank, if you're on Windows, might I recommend Mozilla Thunderbird (www.mozilla.com) with a free account at aoie(http://www.aioe.org /).
T'bird has spell checking, and rules for plonking. It may not be the best out there, but it's served me well, and it's free as well.
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Thanks, I'll check it out. I am on windows, and currently using Mozilla firefox.
Frank
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It's been a slow day. <G>
Max
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Frank Boettcher wrote:

Yep, one often needs to step back and determine whether one has crossed the line to where "people can't tell the difference".
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Fine, Friendly, Fraternizing Females have other ways to accumulate funds.
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Then you try something else......One can get married and put your spouse to work, a couple could even take turns and either could squeeze in part time work as well. One can kiss up to your parents and hang around the homestead until college is done. There are a unlimited variety of jobs that coincide with college classes coupled with roommates or shared housing etc.....There are ample college loans and scholarships available for direct school costs and in many cases living costs as well. I think your confusing difficult with impossible.
Regrettably as more easy money (via loans & taxes) has flooded the market schools have raised tuition rates far exceeding inflation, actually almost in lock step with inflated medical costs......3rd party payees raise havoc with market place dynamics. Community colleges while expensive as well are far cheaper than 4 yr. institutions thus provide a much cheaper weeding out process for the many whom attempt but fail to finish school.
My wife's family (three brothers and her) were literally as poor as church mice, her Dad was pastor of a small church and her Mom had decade long major medical problems and bills.....her 2 brothers and my wife all graduated from college...for those whom want it and have enough gray matter to get by, there is always a way. Rod
Rod
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Rod & Betty Jo wrote:

If the spouse can find work.

So how do you pay for college? And what happens if the parents live 200 miles from the nearest decent college?

And now you're ending up with the guy fresh out of college with huge indebtedness to pay back.

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J. Clarke wrote:

Always the doom and gloom eh?

Then that's not an option

Motivation to do well. Hopefully he has done the cost trades

Yep, if you look deep enough. I grew up on a small family farm that was far from prosperous. My folks pushed us to do will in school and were supportive in terms of providing a place to live (couldn't afford the dorm, so I had a 30 mile commute), provided the opportunity to work to pay for school (I put myself through school raising pigs), and encouragement -- they couldn't provide money. Both my brother and I got our engineering degrees and found good jobs that have been good to us. We could have groused about how we couldn't afford to go to college if we tried the traditional route, but as Rod said, if there is a will there is a way.
I'm trying to figure out if you are looking for excuses for others, or what the deal is, you seem to be able to identify why it is just impossible for someone starting with little to do well (or even OK). Not everyone will become plant manager, manager, or CEO, but with determination and some drive, it should be possible to make a decent living.
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On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 06:47:19 -0500, "J. Clarke"

True, but others have taken their place. When I had my TV guide route (12 years old, anyone old enough to remember them), then two paper routes, there were no fast food joints. McDonalds came out a few years later, and I worked there for $.60 per hour. Now most of the paper delivery is motor routes, but there is a fast food place on every corner and they are always hiring, usually at a couple of bucks premium to minimum. Seems like everyone uses yard services now, and in this area year round, another opportunity that didn't really exist when I was young. Mall retail has expanded exponentially. That little downtown movie theatre has turned into two or three multiplex theatres.
It is all in attitude. You will probably have to have intelligence to get to be the president of the company, but attitude will get you most of the way there. Primarily attitude means putting your ego subserviant to your employer and his stakeholders. It is so simple.
And yes, you can always find an anecdotal situation where an individual cannot pull himself up, but statistically, I believe there are more opportunites today to get started then ever.
Frank
When I was a teenager

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"Frank Boettcher" wrote

I agree ... the willingness to work to "get the job done right", is the single thing I see most lacking in those I hire today.
So lacking in fact, that the opposite is "remarkable" in its most precise definition.
Success _is_ , eventually, that simple ...
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Yes. I have a SIL who is a wannabee, while the kid supports his sorry ass (and his kid). Before they were married, he wanted to be a photographer, but his camera broke and he couldn't afford another. He managed to get a 60" TV that year, though. He wasn't happy when I pointed out that a lot of my camera gear was bought in plade of things like that. We still have a 25" CRT TV (in fairness, neither my wife nor I watch much TV, so it doesn't matter to us). He wanted to be a writer, but couldn't sit down long enough to do it (all he does is f..king sit, fer crissakes!), and when he found out I was a former Marine, he piped up with, "Marines! I love the discipline." He wouldn't know discipline if it bit him on the ass. I told him a few weeks ago he should go check the Marines out; they're taking people up to at least 34, and he's 32. He looked panicky and chaged the subject.
He tells our daughter it would "demean" him to work for a low wage (8 bucks an hour, I think he was talking about), but it doesn't demean him to take child support from his son's mother, while living off another woman.
We discovered we were wrong about his job record. I had thought he hadn't worked at anything more than two months. Nope. He worked almost six months in one job.
Ugh. SSOS. AKA sorry sack of shit.
He will fail at any job he attempts. Christ, they're dying for welders around here. If I were his age, I'd head for the nearest place to learn torch and stick handling, and start applying. Places are taking low end welders, paying 12-13 bucks an hour, and training them. Sure, it's hard work. But it is work you can do well and be proud of.
Ah, pfui. You cannot re-program many of the losers, I'm afraid. Those that you can, of course, are not really losers, just people temporarily down on their luck. Those people should be helped.
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Ambition, good attitude, common sense, the desire to do better. Some of the people in the deparment were great at the job they did, but had no management skills, nor did they have the interest. There are millions of workers that do a good job, but that is all they want to do. Punch in, work, punch out. No thinking required. It was a union shop and they did have some security. That security and good union wage went away when the company moved south to cut costs.

As stated, my income for the year was $5800, or $111 a week. That included some overtime. Base was probably $90 a week or so.
As a side note, Social Security sends you an annual summary of your earnings. We could live well for a year back then on what is now a month's pay.

In high school I did sometimes work the meat counter and use the slicer. I was 16 at the time. Now you have to be 18. I wokred 2 hours a day M-F and 8 on Saturday. Most of the small stores are gone but fast food takes at least some of their place.
Some of the jobs are gone, but many parents don't want their kids to work, but to play organized sports and take music lessons and other activities that keep them busy. I had to buy my own car; too many parents give the kids a car and unwittingly take away a lot of incentive to do well in life.
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

How does one get "management skills" and convince the boss that one has them?

Yep. That's part of the problem. You used to be able to live on minimum wage, but minimum wage also didn't apply to a number of jobs that were considered to be starter jobs for teenagers. Much of that has been closed off now, so the minumum wage has to be kept low enough to allow at least some of those jobs to still exist.

Mine were that way and I'm still trying to recover.
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J. Clarke wrote:

I don't know if anyone can "get" those skills. They can hone them, improve them, and work hard at improving what you already have. As Frank stated earlier, many people have neither the aptitude nor willingness to pursue that line of work. And that's fine for them. It seems that the people who have the skills are born with a natural inclination to lead. I'm not equating leadership skills with management skills 100%, but there is a correlation.
As often as not, convincing the boss comes down to playing the game, whatever it is within that particular organisaton.

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Tanus

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wrote in message

Can't give a definitive answer to that. In my case, I was one day summoned to the office of the plant manager. He had seen me around the plant (I was doing inventory control) and asked if I wanted to be a part of his team when he took over as Manufacturing Manager. Two weeks later I had a new job. Progressive companies are always on the lookout for good workers and ways to promote them. My shipping supervisor came to us from burger flipping. He worked in shipping and now runs the department. My maintenance supervisor was a maintenance and mold setup guy and when his boss moved to Florida, we gave him a chance.
We reward good people also. Super Christmas bonuses, a weekend trip after 10 years. a 10 day trip of your choice after 15 years (I went to Italy), and a generally good working atmosphere every day. Very few people quit this company as we are treated very well.
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

Must be nice. The places I've worked were _not_ like that. Promotion by seniority, when there's a downturn the junior people get laid off and the seniors get demoted, the only way up was for someone to retire or die.
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