OT: As if THS is news.....

[Robatoy]

LOL.. work that one out on a pad of graph paper. He actually said that?

Too funny.

[Tim Daneliuk]

Or Garrison Keeler

[GROVER]

a privledged man pretending to be down on his luck for the purpose of getting a handle on the attitudes of the less fortunate. The film was set during the depression and featured Joel McRae and Veronica Lake (I guess that date me). Its worth catching the next time TCM broadcasts it. Joe G

[Swingman]

"GROVER" wrote

That is the ONLY channel I watch on TV with any regularity ... we really knew how to make movies (and music), before the rise of idiocy.

[Robatoy]

Sometimes both at the same time, like Casablanca, West Side Story. Some of the best movies come out of the $4.99 bin at WalMart.

[Swingman]

"Robatoy" wrote

"Swingman" wrote

"To Have and Have Not" ... what a woman that Bacall was, at the tender young age of 19!

Slim: "You know you don't have to act with me, Steve. You don't have to say anything, and you don't have to do anything. Not a thing. Oh, maybe just whistle. You know how to whistle, don't you, Steve? You just put your lips together and... blow."

IMO, there is nothing in the last 40 years that comes close!

[GROVER]

To Robatoy,

I also watch TCM too much. I can't prove it, but I may hold the record for the number of times I've watched Casablanca.I don't know if Guiness tabulates such statistics but I must be in the top ten. Joe G

[Swingman]

"GROVER" wrote

"Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine."

[Robatoy]

"Round up the usual suspects."

[Swingman]

"As the leader of all illegal activities in Casablanca, I am an influential and respected man."

[Mark & Juanita]

I've been kind of surprised by that also. The person doing this experiment was a reasonably intelligent person; he wasn't going to do something that would put him in the position of being in a situation that would ruin the rest of his life for the sake of an experiment. What those criticizing him for this detail seemed to have missed is that he indicated that his rule was that if he used the card, the experiment was over. Frankly, I would think that having that credit card would have made his experiment more difficult because he knew he had it, knew it was there and that he could use it anytime (sort of like the system you reference above). Seems that would have been a very great temptation any time that the going got a bit tough.

[Tim Daneliuk]

"Gambling? I'm shocked! ... Your winnings sir."

[LRod]

I said the "experiment" was unimpressive. What part of that did I miss?

I'm amazed that you did, what with that debillitating reading impairment you have.

[Swingman]

Enuff of this ... I'm ending with my favorite, all time, movie line: Jack Nicholson in "As Good As It Gets" when asked how he, as a male writer, develops his women characters:

"I think of a man, then remove all reason and accountability".

Back to work ...

[George]

Makes me chuckle. After booking, we had to allow that phone call, and after punching up the number, I used to hand the receiver to the drunk and say "three thirty" or whatever time.

Lots of them would ask me what that meant. I told them "it's the answer to the first question you'll hear." Some who had sobered enough opted to call in the morning.

[dpb]

Mark & Juanita wrote: ...

The whole thing is a put-up job, not an "experiment" at all imo. It is flawed from conception owing to there being no negative outcome possible in a real sense of an actual outcome of other than the participant choosing to withdraw from the experiment.

One cannot also remove from the subject the innate lessons learned by his previous X number of years of relative affluence, education, etc., etc., as others have previously at least alluded to.

All in all, it is of no real value for any rational discussion of the cures for poverty and/or welfare/assistance.

There are those who are born in the worst of conditions who do, despite the odds, manage to persevere; siblings may (and most often do) succumb. It is, like most other human activities, controlled by personal deeds and actions and those are highly individualistic.

One can tend to produce better outcomes w/ better inputs, but such artificial examples don't have anything to teach us imo.

$0.02, etc., ...

--

[BDBConstruction]

This would be like saying that climbing a 1000' vertical rock face using ropes/saftey lines would be "more difficult" as oppossed to free climbing it (no saftey gear whatsoever). This is actually a perfect scenario analagous to the OP.

If you were to climb the face with saftey lines/ropes you would move quicker, take steps with confidence, perhaps take a few riskier hand/ foot holds than you would, your heart would pound less, you may take time out to relax and look around, your lungs would operate more efficiently, experience less fatigue, the list is endless. You would get to the top faster, and taken less toll on your body, period.

Now climb the face with no saftey equipment, you will second, third, fourth, tenth guess every move becase its life or death, this stress will likely cause you to make less than optimal decisions, you would move exponentially slower, your heart would pound rapidly putting untold amounts of additional stress on your body, your entire physiology would opperate less efficiently. You would get there far slower if at all and perhaps die trying.

Now, go even farther, say the first climber is the guy in the article, he is an experienced climber (experienced, educated, confident, at what he was doing). Try it with a novice climber, then with someone who has never even hiked. Then with someone who has a fear of heights. Then with someone who is 60lbs overweight. Plot the results of climbing the rock, and out of poverty, on a graph and I would venture a guess that the two would take very similar tracks.

Furtermore the thought that the card would make it harder flies in the face of every medical study published regarding stress, health, and decision making. There are countless reems of data chronicling how constant stress (worry) is debilitating, detrimental to sound decision making, and can in fact cause and fertilize disease. Possesion of this card voids that stress in the short and long term (perhaps when he max's it out things will change hehe). His education voids that stress. His knowing that no matter what the outcome of this experiment he has a home, family, earning potential, voids that stress. Its like jumping between two tractor trailers going 60mph side by side on a reality show. The fear is mitigated by the rigging and saftey gear you are wearing, whether you succeed or fail, you are not falling to the roadway to be ground up into bits. The show will not allow that to happen, so just go ahead and jump, who cares. The only bad outcome is that you dont win.

I see both sides with regards to the book/article. I find it very short sighted yet I do agree that there are a lot of lazy people out there who are more than willing to take something for nothing so they dont have to get off their asses. I do however agree with many of the other posters that coming up from abject poverty is far more difficult than this article/book tries to make it sound. This is another one of those "mile in his shoes" things. People who havent been through it, and even some who have, dont often take all aspects into consideration.

Mark

[Robatoy]

That analogy works for me. Where's the danger when there's a net?

[BDBConstruction]

And even beyond the danger, how does the lack of it effect ones projected confidence. As others have posted forget about the fact that he is well educated, knows the system well, is probably extremely fluent and a good speaker/conversationalist. Give this guy an 8th grade education, a couple of parents who never made him brush his teeth so he only has 5 or 6 left in his head, never learned ettiquate and the need for deodorant, and the outcome of this experience would likely not be debated here. What about things he/she has no control over, cursed with a unibrow from hell, cross eyed, stutters, big goofy ears, buck teeth, or is just plain wierd lookin.

This is what I meant by the "mile in his shoes" thing and people speaking about that which they do not know. How is a single mother and a victim of abuse is going to "present herself" at a job interview. Low self esteem, a lack of confidence, minimal eye contact, she is way down on the rock climbing scale. Hence the hireability scale and subsequently the pay scale. Its not to say she cant or shouldnt work however depending on the locale it may be very difficult for her to exist on what she can command.

A lot of this topic is greatly impacted by ones location but, I personally live and operate a business in an area where many people through poverty, simple lifestyle, or simply not having needed to worry about it in their daily life, have to be reminded to wear deoderant and brush their teeth when they show up for work. It is not uncommon around here to stand in line at a convenience store with your eyes watering from the guy's BO infront of you. One side of me says its ultimately their own responsibility for how they dress, look, smell, etc. But then there is the other side of me that clearly remembers my mother telling of growing up in rural ME in the 40's-50's with no running water, no indoor plumbing, one telephone in town, many had no teeth by the time they were 18, lucky if you could afford a car, grew/raised your own food, eat your pet chicken when times get tough, and so on. This was in the 50's, now in 2008 I can leave my house and drive 20 minutes and visit with people living fairly close to that point. I am not surprised by it, but they are not living that life by choice. They dont have the money, confidence, education, or other resources to simply move to an area where there are jobs. They have lived lives where deodorant, bad breath, and diction, were the least of your worries.

The article does a good job addressing what perhaps an educated but lazy, slacker, from the tv/video generation, born to an affluent family who just raised a bum and finally kicked him out of the house, could do if he/she chose to get off their ass and work. It however doesnt say much for those who have been born and raised poor or low income, fallen on hard times, may not have gotten through high school, city or country folk who dont possess "book loynin" and modern day ettiquate, some miles from the nearest employer, dont have a reliable car if one at all, etc..

Mark

[Hank]

"Mark Johnson" wrote in news:8rGdnT2mno8feinanZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

I went back to school after I left the military (early sixties). There was no GI bill nor student loans. There were two jobs (waiter and gas pump jockey).