This is probably a legal question but I hope someone has delt with a similar problem. I bought a house and the survey showed that a shed with concrete pad was over the back line on anouther lot. (woods and stream behind my lot).
The owner of the property is now telling me to remove the shed. I did not put it their but have been using it and cutting the grass to the boundries that the previous owner had used. This is 6 or 7 years after I purchased the house, Anyone have a similar condition?
That is called Adverse Possesion. Laws vary state to state and can need
5 to 20 years to justify a claim. It will be very expensive to fight in court. If you want an enemy do nothing and you may find any part of your property over the line cut down, yes your shed cut in half with a chain saw. I cut my neighbors fence down that way. If you want to be friends see if they will let you keep it there if you release them from Easement and Adverse Possesion claims in writing, esentialy they give you permission to use it till the shed is old and is torn down. You can " tack" on the previous owners time to make your Adverse Possesion claim. But is it worth it. Is it worth having a true enemy as a neighbor, plus what is the total value of the land you posess. It could cost 10000 $ to fight, and you may loose, more than money. If you want a friend , work out a deal. If you dont care about it, it could cost you money , agravation, friends , and the enjoyment of your home. I know , my neighbor is pulling that shit on me. It is not woth fighting unless it is worth many times more than you will loose. Talk to them and try to be friends and work it out.
No similar experience here, but common sense tells me you can establish title to the property through adverse possession by demonstrating clear and convincing evidence of actual, open, notorious, exclusive, continuous, and hostile possession. Its called "adverse possession." Look it up.
-Mister Foldee
Interesting question. Unless you want to move it, he certainly can't make you do so; you didn't put it there. However, since it is on his property, you can't use it either.
Are you are asking if you have the right to use the property by right of adverse possession. The laws vary widely so I can't give you any advice but to ask a local real estate attorney; even then it will probably up to a judge to decide if it was adverse enough. Do you want use of the shed enough to go through this? Try a google search on the term and you will see what I am getting at.
I have a built up parking area built on my property, but it blocks a neighbor's right of way. I bought it 5 years ago, and it was like that for
10 years before that. My lawyer advised me to try to get along with my neighbor, for it is not clear what would happen if he demanded I remove it. (My neighbor "pointed it out" to me when he asked if he could regrade another part of the right of way. Sure, no problem!) Good luck.Toller , the owner of the land can remove what is Over his line, yes with a chainsaw, I did. Whether he wants to fight it or should depends on alot of factors. A friendly settlement is always best as Adverse Possesion can get nasty, fast.
This should have been caught when you bought the house. I would think the title insurance company has some liability.
How much is the shed worth? It might be easiest to tear it down, or pour a new slab and move it.
As others have mentioned, you have a claim to the land under the shed through "adverse posession", but the state laws regarding such vary widely from state to state. You should look into it; it at least gives you a better bargaining position for dealing with your neighbor.
Other legal terms to look up are "encroachment" and "easement".
Best regards, Bob
I agree. Call the title insurance company and/or lawyer who did the closing. You should have been advised if the shed was an exception to good title. If not let them pay to move it or settle the issue. Tell the neighbor that you did not know it was over the line when you bought the house and you are looking for the title company and closing attorney to fix the problem to both of your benefits.
Others gave some good answers from a legal point of view, but I'm curious as to why after all this time it happened. Did you piss off the neighbor? Any chance of talking to him?
We knew from the survey that one corner of our shed encroaches 6 in. into the neighbor's property (at the back), and if we have to move it sometime, we will, I guess; there is no slab, so it probably won't be difficult to move. I don't know when the shed was erected, and I don't know whether the neighbor knows about the encroachment. I am almost certainly mowing part of his property when I mow around the back of the shed.
By analogy with the case of the tree branch growing into a neighbor's property, according to English law (parts of which the US *may* have inherited or adopted), the neighbor would have the right to demolish the part of the shed that intrudes into his property (but no more than that) but would have to return it to me because it (the shed) is my property. OTOH, a tree with a branch cut off is still a perfectly good tree, whereas a shed with the corner cut off is not much good for anything, so I wonder whether the law would allow the neighbor to cut it off without any attempt to resolve the matter some other way first.
MB
On 09/22/04 11:41 am Art put fingers to keyboard and launched the following message into cyberspace:
I think you are absolutely on the mark with your thinking, and I reached the same conclusion over a similar situation myself this spring.
A home "on the other side of the block" was sold the beginning of last year. The lot that home is on shares a side border with our lot for about 75 feet. I'd introduced myself to the new owners when I first saw them and said "Hi" to them on subsequent occassions, but they didn't seem inclined to "schmooze", so I gave them their space.
Last summer the new neighbors hired landscapers to do some pretty heavy duty modifications to their back yard which included excavating what I suspected was about 5 feet into our lot, building a stone retaining wall there and planting shrubs. They didn't ask permission before they did that. We weren't using that land for anything, nor could I forsee ever doing so, since the lay of the land makes that part of our property more naturally "fit" the new neighbor's site.
But, my memory of just where the common border actually was had dimmed in the 20 years we'd lived in our home, and I didn't want to make a fool of myself by bringing a question of encroachment up to the new neighbors and then finding out I was wrong. I hired a surveyor who staked out our lot and I took a number of photographs of the stakes from various angles.
The surveyor's work confirmed what I thought, the new neighbors had carved off about 400 square feet of our lot for themselves and made significant changes and permenant additions to it which made it appear to be "part of their yard".
They would have had to have been blind to not notice the dayglow orange stakes plunked down in "their" new lawn, but they just left them in place and didn't bring it up with me.
I decided that a letter to them was in order and wrote one, explaining what they'd done and offering to sell them the land they grabbed for it's proportional tax accessed value. (about $6,000, land is pretty dear where we live.) I added that if they didn't want to buy the land from us then perhaps they could pay a lawyer to draw up some kind of contract between us "renting" them the land they were using for just the proportional property taxes we're paying on it, about $80 a year.
I didn't receive an answer to my letter and a couple of months later I saw the husband in his yard and asked him if he'd received it. He said he had, but he couldn't respond until he got a survey of his own. I knew right then that he was just an asshole who figured that if we weren't using the land he could, and without even having the class to take care of the property taxes on it.
I checked with a real estate lawyer in my Rotary Club who told me essentially what you said, we could start a feud and spend tens of thousands on lawyers and surveyor's witness fees, which would be a lot more than the piddling amount we are paying in property taxes on the land they are using. I also found out that our property is what's known as "Registered Land" here in Taxachusetts, which is a higher class of title than usual,making it pretty near impossible to grab by adverse possession. So, future owners of our home can still take up the matter themselves if they want.
I briefly fantasized about spending some money and having a crummmy looking fence erected down the property line, which would have chopped off the land they'd improved and made my point very clear, but then I had an epiphany and decided to "put it away" rather than have to occasionally lock eyes with those folks and wonder what retribution they might decide to take someday.
I feel better for dropping the matter, and the neighbors and I still can say, "Hi", to each other, but still little more than that. (But, when they turn away I can't help myself from "giving them the bird" behind their backs and muttering, "Asshole".)
Jeff
Money talks--suggest look into a lot line adjustment,offering him cash........
Didn't they need some kind of permit to put up the retaining wall? A permit would not have been granted if it encroached on your land. You might can have the city order their wall torn down, at little or no cost to you -- the dispute will be between them and the city, and you will just be an interested 3rd party.
Best regards, Bob
That retaining wall is a little under 4 feet in height, and you don't need a building permit to erect stone walls less than 5 feet in height in our town, according to the chief building inspector.
They also plunked down one of those prefab garden sheds with it's back side right on the property line. The town code doesn't allow that, those sheds have to be 5 feet in from side and back lines.
I suppose I could, over the shed location at least, but that would still start a feud, as they'd be sure to realize who complained about their shed being too close to the line. I'm pretty sure of that because the shed can't be seen from the street and also because I mentioned its nonconforming location in that letter I sent to them. I wrote that they could "make an honest shed out of it" by buying that strip of land I was offering to sell them. So, they know that I am aware of the shed location transgression, and who else would have any reason to complain?
I prefer to stop where I decided to and think of it as "noblesse oblige" (used in its ironic sense.) There are many more important things to try and put right in this screwed up world of ours.
Likewise,
Jeff
Well Jeff Wisnia when the lady informed me of her adverse possesion desires I got a bottle of whiskey, a chainsaw, and cut down everything on my property. A new Neighbor they are? what an ass he is. To me it is theft. You can offer them a letter that allows them to use it without Adverse Possesion, without Easements and break the chain they started. Some states are 5 yrs, Mine Indiana is 10. some are 20. If my neighbor did that after just moving in, after failing in peacefull talk out would come Mr Beam and a Bulldoser. Call me I will do it for the fun of it, you buy the booze. But your case is different, they just took your land from you, in front of you, saying in essence F.U. In that position them being new to the area . Well in the old days they shot horse and land thieves. Yes It is messy arguing with someone living next door. But your case of your neighbor from what I know is so blatelantly wrong I personaly would take action. How you do it, well the first step failed, they ignored you. Talk to an atty, the city permit, and bldg comissioner good luck, you are paying the taxes, and insurance, and you paid for it.
You might have trouble selling the house under the circumstances. Who would buy a house where part of the land was appropriated by a neighbor? If you failed to disclose that to a buyer, you could be held liable.
I would bite the bullet and have them either buy the land or restore it to the way it was.
If it would be a fairly expensive proposition, never underestimate the power of cash on the table. The OP should invite the neighbor over, letting him know that he's concerned about the situation and willing to work something out. Ask the neighbor if the shed conflicts with some current plans (probably doesn't).
If not, ask about an easement. If the the neighbor is not willing to do so, then let him know that payment is an option. Pull out a couple hundred in $20s and lay them on table. Actual greenbacks carry more power than a promise of money or even a check. Naturally, no money really changes hands until signatures are on paper, but a handshake deal at this point is feasible.
Brian
Is the WHOLE shed over the property line, or just part of it? How big a shed is it? Do either you or he have a survey? Have you asked why the neighbor suddenly NOW wants you to move the shed? How hard would it actually be to move it? How about to blow it up and build a new one?
If it's really on his property, and he wants it gone, you ought to move it. (this being a question of what's right, as opposed to what's legal)
--Goedjn
I've not failed to think about that one, but I've decided that I'll cross that bridge when I get to it, 'cause that's when we won't have to leave near those neighbors any more..
Of course I'd disclose the situation to our real estate agent right up front if and when we ever want to sell the place. Because of the contours of the land it is extremely unlikely that a future purchaser would think of it as a useful part of their purchase, so there's a good chance it wouldn't turn off a prospective purchaser too much.
I did send my original letter to "the asshole" via certified mail return receipt, and I'll ping him with similarly sent polite reminders every couple of years, and keep them on file, for good measure.
I suppose though, that the way things are going re liability lawsuits these days, if some trespasser fell off that 4 foot high retaining wall the neighbors erected and broke his neck they might come after us over it, but OTOH our property insurance and umbrella coverage should apply since it's on "our land", 'eh?
My parsimony stands in the way, and my lawyer advised me that I'd have near zero chance of recovering my own legal expenses from the encroacher in this matter. I long ago learned not to confuse the law with justice.
I'm only in it $1,100 for the survey so far, but OTOH that showed me that similar undeveloped land on the other side of our lot on which our teen aged son and his friends had built a firepit where they'd sometimes hang out around a small bonfire, really belonged to us, and not as I had mistakenly assumed, to someone else.
Jeff
Get another lawyer. And another and another until you get someone that is indignant that you are being taken advantage of.
Pj
"Jeff Wisnia"
Legal expenses? What legal expenses? Am I missing something? You've already done the survey, the wall is on your land, so just tell him if he doesn't remove it within 30 days, you will remove it. Unless there is some dispute about where the property boundary is, I see no question of law here, and he has zero recourse if you remove the wall on your own property. Then bill your neighbor the cost of demolition, but don't expect to collect.
If you don't care about it affecting the future value of your property, and you don't mind the wall being there, then don't bother. But I don't believe a defense of your property boundaries against encroachment would take an expensive legal battle, if the facts are as you state.
Will
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