External 'bar' door design?

Some of you may know form my previous questions, I have been building a large ‘barn style’ outbuilding, one half is an open car port, other is to have a pair of doors fitted.
Roof is currently being tiled, in the next couple of weeks I want to build a pair of softwood ‘garage’ doors.
Height is 2085 (82”) and width 3302 (130”) for the pair ..~ 1650 each
Been getting my original thoughts together … as per this sketch: http://tinyurl.com/6befn2
Basically an outer frame which is rebated to take a tongue & groove ‘infill’, I would make my own t&g using full length loose tongue splines, all well glued to each other, and into outer frame. I would horizontal brace (on inside) at hinge handing points, and fit a diagonal strut between the braces for racking strength … as per this pic: http://tinyurl.com/5hu9vb
My initial thoughts on sizes of timber to use, and how to do it are in the drawing http://tinyurl.com/5o83zd
Be interested in views on sizes of timbers, in particular the top/ bottom rails and the side stiles, joints etc.
Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support & verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some carpentry books. See: http://tinyurl.com/6fescs
Also no real idea yet on how to joint in the horizontal braces ... seen dowels suggested in one book, other option I suppose could be a half lap joint ?
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Some of you may know form my previous questions, I have been building a large ‘barn style’ outbuilding, one half is an open car port, other is to have a pair of doors fitted.
Roof is currently being tiled, in the next couple of weeks I want to build a pair of softwood ‘garage’ doors.
Height is 2085 (82”) and width 3302 (130”) for the pair ..~ 1650 each
Been getting my original thoughts together … as per this sketch: http://tinyurl.com/6befn2
Basically an outer frame which is rebated to take a tongue & groove ‘infill’, I would make my own t&g using full length loose tongue splines, all well glued to each other, and into outer frame. I would horizontal brace (on inside) at hinge handing points, and fit a diagonal strut between the braces for racking strength … as per this pic: http://tinyurl.com/5hu9vb
My initial thoughts on sizes of timber to use, and how to do it are in the drawing http://tinyurl.com/5o83zd
Be interested in views on sizes of timbers, in particular the top/ bottom rails and the side stiles, joints etc.
Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support & verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some carpentry books. See: http://tinyurl.com/6fescs
Also no real idea yet on how to joint in the horizontal braces ... seen dowels suggested in one book, other option I suppose could be a half lap joint ?
A couple of observations about the design, the inner splined panel can't be glued to the outer stiles, natural expansion and contraction would tear the doors apart.
Even though the bracing looks good in the drawings, I think they are much too close together to keep the doord from racking. You could build the doors and line the back with quarter inch plywood, that would keep them from ever sagging. This would also solve the problem of attaching the horizontal bracing as it would be mostly cosmetic.
Basilisk
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I realise the point on bracing - but position of hinges forces that .... the idea of lining inside with 1/4" ply seems a good one. Can this be glued to farme ? .... and if so why would this not be a problem compared to screwing in t&g (not arguing - just keen to understand)
Regarding the 't&g' infill, would you bed them in with silicon, and just screw them into frame?
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I realise the point on bracing - but position of hinges forces that .... the idea of lining inside with 1/4" ply seems a good one. Can this be glued to farme ? .... and if so why would this not be a problem compared to screwing in t&g (not arguing - just keen to understand)
Regarding the 't&g' infill, would you bed them in with silicon, and just screw them into frame?
Plywood doesn't expand and contract as much as lumber, plus it will be on the inside of the door and more protected. I would glue and screw the ply to the frame and leave the inner panel floating, In a panel this wide, exposed to weather you may have an inch or more in expansion and contraction from one season to the next, if the panel can't float inside the frame, it will push the frame apart.
You could dowel the ends of the panel boards into the frame top and bottom and leave small gaps between each piece to allow for expansion and contraction.
With changes in humidity, wood will change in thickness and width but not much at all in lenght and nothing will stop it, you just have to allow for it.
Basilisk
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.
I have a question that is not necessarily pertaining to the thread but none the less,... With regards to this panel movement of over an inch from season to season. As a builder/manufacturer of such a door how would you deal with the finish issues related with such movement? As homebuilders we are well aware of, and accustomed to the panel movement of an interior six panel pine door. There is nothing worse than coming back to a job a year later to find that the panels have shrunk and left a 1/16" un-stained and un-urethaned band around each panel of the door. We have our own ways of dealing with this but in a situation like the one here, would you pre-finish the T&G to accommodate the movement? What if the door was to be painted? Or worse, painted on site. Oiling the door or some sort of natural finish would allow for hitting the door when it shrinks however many other (and more common) finishes will not handle 1" of movement.
Just a question, Mark
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... As a builder/manufacturer of such a door how would you deal with the finish issues related with such movement?
... We have our own ways of dealing with this but in a situation like the one here, would you pre-finish the T&G to accommodate the movement? What if the door was to be painted? ... ... 1" of movement.
... Just a question,
In short, never design a structure with that wide of a foating pannel. There are a couple of solutions:
1. Use plywood or similarly stable pannel material. 2. Divide the pannel into smaller pieces which will individually only move a fraction of that potential 1". This is done with the addition of fixed interior stiles (like most door F&P interior door construction) . If you are using T& boards as large pannel, allow them to individually float, possible tacking in center of each "slat". I have used both individual T&G with interior stiles (together) for F&P assemblies for a furniture backs.
Personally, I always prefinish pannels.... because it's good practice, and I'm a hobbyist and my time is free.
Also, pannel movement can be mitigated with stock selection. Generally, quartersawn stock has about 1/2 the cross-pannel expansion of flatsawn stock. Species selection can help too.
Regards,
Steve
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I have a question that is not necessarily pertaining to the thread but none the less,... With regards to this panel movement of over an inch from season to season. As a builder/manufacturer of such a door how would you deal with the finish issues related with such movement? As homebuilders we are well aware of, and accustomed to the panel movement of an interior six panel pine door. There is nothing worse than coming back to a job a year later to find that the panels have shrunk and left a 1/16" un-stained and un-urethaned band around each panel of the door. We have our own ways of dealing with this but in a situation like the one here, would you pre-finish the T&G to accommodate the movement? What if the door was to be painted? Or worse, painted on site. Oiling the door or some sort of natural finish would allow for hitting the door when it shrinks however many other (and more common) finishes will not handle 1" of movement.
Just a question, Mark
Whenever I build a gate or door like this I finish them with oil and saturate the whole thing, the oil will creep into the joints far enough mask the shrinkage, this is messy and expensive. I avoid painting things like this, but if I had to I would paint each piece before assembly and touch up the joints afterward.
I wouldn't even consider building an exterior door this wide with one solid glued up panel, it would look good when new but it disassemble itself in a few seasons, and you are correct no finish will hide what a solid panel this size will do.
I have a large pine dining table that is rectangular, 72" x 120", width of the lumber is in the 72" direction and even in a controlled environment it will expand and contract over an inch in a years time. It will also hold about a years worth of mail before you have to clean it off for Thanksgiving and Christmas.
Basilisk
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If there are two layers, an outer siding and inner sheathing, the outer WILL get wet, but you don't want the plywood sheathing to weather (moisture cycling wil often cause delamination). The solution is to put a layer between that doesn't wick moisture (old style: tarpaper or new style: Tyvek housewrap).
Plywood cups badly if you let it dampen. So, don't.
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In article

I hope you're not from somewhere that gets snow to any extent. Doors such as this are a big pain when it snows...you have to not only shovel out the driveway, but enough space to swing the doors open. This is especially hard if they're at all close to the ground level, as you need to shovel all the way down to the bottom then, where it tends to get crusty and icy. It's quite rough on the doors when the shoveling lacks in the least, too; scraping along the bottom applies lots of nasty torque to parts that don't normally get it.
(I'm speaking from experience here...I find it a lot easier to park my car outside during the winter and clean the car off than to clean out in front of my garage, which thus ends up holding other stuff.)

You have the diagonal brace going in different directions in your various pictures, and it can make a pretty big difference in how effective it is. You want it to go upwards from the hinge side of the door, not downwards, so that it acts in compression to counteract the sagging, not in tension. I think this is mostly because it's a lot easier and more certain to make a solid joint when you have gravity working with you, rather than against you. (Wood is also a fair bit stronger in compression than in tension, but that's not a big factor here.)

On my garage, the doors are rather simpler and less ornamental, consisting simply of planking (T&G, I suspect) screwed into two horizontal and one diagonal brace on the inside. Planks and braces are roughly 20mm thick and 80 or 100mm wide. This seems adequate, but I wouldn't want much less thickness. The main problem areas actually seem to be the hinge attachments, both to the door and to the wall; these doors are pretty heavy.
I think you probably want your hinges about as far apart as you can reasonably get them, and having three hinges would not be overkill. Getting rid of the diagonal brace from the corner would help a lot here, although obviously look less attractive. In any event, good long strap hinges are nearly essential.
The idea of using some plywood product for the panels is a good one. Grooves or battens to simulate individual planks can dress it up quite a bit. Another good thought is to provide a smallish wheel towards the middle of each door to help prevent sagging.
--
Andrew Erickson

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot
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"Andrew Erickson" wrote

The wheel idea is good. I have not seen this. I have seen them on gates and have repaired/upgraded two gates in the last year. I did some searches and found that what I was looking for was called a gate castor. I also found that ace hardware carried them.
Whan I went to my local ace hardware store, they had never heard of them. I told them to enter gate castor in their search field. It popped up. I had it three days latr and did my repairs. I assume that you would need something a little bigger for a big door like this. Although these castors were quite robust.
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Intended using 600mm long strap hinges, based on manufactures guide that strap hinge size should equal 1/3rd of door width. Although I could increase to next size of 760mm. Your comment on 3 hinges is something I had not thought about ... I'll look more into that.
Castor wheels are failrly common here, but I'd have to check if vertical movement of castor will work with slope of driveway, originally discounted as they would tend to mark the drive in use.
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That's what I get for not rereading well before posting. What I meant to say was "...a smallish wheel on the side of the door towards the middle of the opening," i.e. opposite the hinge side. Sorry for any confusion.
--
Andrew Erickson

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot
  Click to see the full signature.
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Also not sure if cross brace should strut against horizontal support & verticals as shown, or horizontal only as I have seen in some carpentry books. See: http://tinyurl.com/6fescs
First you need to rotate the brace the other way to that it resists racking in compression rather than tension. Then, yes, I would but it up against both the rail and stile.
-Steve
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Yep ... are showb right way on 'outside' view, didn't reverse them when I used cut & paste for inside view ..
have updated now to - http://tinyurl.com/5fjzb3
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