Chain saw gas

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I added premium unleaded to my gas can (plus oil) this time around for my chainsaw. My chainsaw seemed to run a little hotter, which was helpful, but I wonder if this is not the best thing for the machine. Any thoughts? Thanks.
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On 12/27/2015 11:32 AM, Michael wrote:

The small engine shop that services my equipment tells me that the best thing to use in those items is the pre-mixed fuel sold in the quart cans. The reason? It's premium fuel, with stabilizers and NO ALCOHOL. The last is the biggie. Over time the ethanol added to the fuel will wreak havoc with your 2-cycle engine. So, you using premium is a good thing and you can make it better if your state allows for mixtures without ethanol. I know that Wisconsin does, but Illinois doesn't.
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On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 12:48:57 -0600, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

Washington allows it. I've found that my ancient 500cc motorcycle gets 50mpg with ethanol, 60 without. And the ethanol does bad things to tank liners in old bikes.
BTW, eliminating 10% ethanol increases my bikes mileage by 20%. Tell me how I'm lowering pollution with ethanol :-).
--
It's turtles, all the way down!

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< snips >

This < Canada Natural Resources > website
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/fcr-rcf/public/index-e.cfm
shows some fuel economy data - - example - 2013 Dodge 1500 8 cyl. auto pickup -
on regular gas        14.6 litres per 100 km on E85 ethanol        21.8 litres per 100 km
"regular gas" might be some ethanol content ? in your area. ? dunno.
A difference of ~ 7 litres per 100 kM ! for using the highly subsidized corn alcohol .. ?
Geeeze ... am I missing something ?
John T.
--- ---
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snipped-for-privacy@ccanoemail.com wrote in news:hbp08bh7j6h18fpb5gv4npmgae7ckg1hfq@ 4ax.com:

Regular gas is usually 10% or less ethanol. Exactly how much depends on whatever other additives they're using, and the octane rating they want. The reason for putting ethanol in regular gas is that it's a very effective octane booster, and unlike other octane boosters such as MBTE it's more-or-less non toxic.

That sounds about right for E85. Corn alcohol makes a very poor fuel. With current technology, the only economically viable (and enviromentally sound) way to make alcohol fuel is to start with sugar.
John
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On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:59:20 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy

The reason ethanol is added to fuel in North America is NOT for octane improvement. It is added as an "oxygenator" It is supposed to reduce the carbon monaxide and particulate emissions of the vehicle.

Brazil runs almost exclusively on cane ethanol.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in wrote:

You are confusing two different things here, both of which ethanol happens to be good for.
One is octane rating. Raw gas (no additives) has an octane rating (*) of around 70, so something has to be added to raise it to a useful level. Historically that was tetra ethyl lead, which of course is now banned. Ethanol has an octane rating of around 110. So adding ethanol to gas is a very effective way to raise the octane rating.
The second is oxygenation. In ideal conditions there is enough oxygen in the air entering the engine to completely burn the fuel. Ideal conditions don't always occur, so a fuel additive that contains oxygen can help get to complete combustion. Ethanol contains oxygen, so it is effective as an oxygenator.
Until 2007 there was a Federal requirement (in the US) to include oxygenators in fuel. That requirement no longer exists. The reason ethanol is added to gasoline now is for it's value as an octane booster.
(* octane rating is a confusing thing, because there are several common ways of testing it, which give different numbers. In North America the AKI (or R+M/2) method is used, which is what the numbers above are based on).
John
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On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 14:48:46 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy

Hydrocracked/catalytic cracked first run gasoline has an octane of up to 90 with no additives.
There is no such thing as an "octane" rating of over 100. Over 100 it is an "aki" or antiknock index..

Then why is ethanol added to regular gas at 10% and not added to premium (in very many cases)???
The ethanol is added to regular gas because that is the easiest way to sell the volume of ethanol mandated. The total amount of gasoline sold in an area needs to contain, say, 9% ethanol (maximum limit is 10%) and 99% of gas sold is regular (or a mix containing regular) so they do not HAVE to put it in the premium gas.
Also, the ethanol is not added at the refinery (at least in many cases) it is added to the tanker at the depot - so the regular gas at the depot has to be 97 octane without ethanol.
I don't "buy" the ethanol as octane booster arguement - at least here in Ontario. Does it increase Octane? Sure. Is octane the reason it is added? No. It is added because it is mandated. It is mandated because it is an oxygenator. The octane boost is just a bonus. (which helps mitigate thedilution of the fuel energy caused by the dilution of the fuel with low energy ethanol in the eye of those who don't understand octane requirements and energy content and the fact they are not connected in any way)

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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in news:jas28blrb27snvfj6g8q5ujft8c9ugnf9c@ 4ax.com:

Antiknock Index and Octane Rating are the same thing. You're trying to sound intelligent there, but you're shooting yourself in the foot...

It usually is added to premium in the US. I don't know why Canada is different, but I suspect it's due to tax policy.
In the US, ethanol is used because:
a) it's an effective octane booster b) it's cheap compared to the alternatives c) the energy act of 2007 provides Federal incentives d) it does not have the legal liabilities of MBTE
Incidently, ethanol isn't "added to gas at 10%". The amount used varies, from 5% to 10%, depending on the octane rating desired.
John
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e) intense pressure exerted by the Corn Ethanol Lobby
http://www.taxpayer.net/library/article/political-footprint-of-the-corn-ethanol-lobby-2015 http://thefederalist.com/2015/10/21/how-pandering-to-iowas-ethanol-lobby-hurts-america/ https://www.organicconsumers.org/news/exposing-corn-based-ethanol-hoax-solution-peak-oil
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On 12/29/2015 1:55 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:

If you want to know why there is alcohol in fuel, follow the money.
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On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:28:08 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy

t octane only goes to 100 because you can NOT have aoiso-octane/heptane mixture more than 100% iso-octane.Check your facts. Anything over 100 is AKI

It's because if you have to sell a certain amount of ethanol, put it where you will sell it fastest.

Mabee in the US of A, but not here in Canada. Ethanol is used as an oxygenator up here. The extra octane is just a "bonus" if you can call anything that reduces the energy output of a fuel a "bonus"
Up here it is "may contain up to 10% ethanol by volume"

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On 12/29/2015 3:10 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Exactly! Typically alcohol reduces gas mileage. My Tundra which was designed to run or regular gets better gas mileage with premium from the same gasoline station. Now that the price difference out weighs the gas mileage benefits I have cut back from using premium and over all my gas mileage has suffered. Now there are other reasons that I get better gas mileage from premium but most likely the lack of alcohol is just one of them.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in news:sft58b93crkcqiru2mqeh5snjegtsqv74s@ 4ax.com:

You are confused here.
There are several methods of calculating octane rating, the two most common being the "research method" and the "motor method". They work the same way, you run the fuel being tested in a special motor which has a variable compression ratio, and compare the point where preignition starts to the point where it starts with a particular isomer of heptane (defined as zero octane rating) and a particular isomer of octane (defined as 100 octane rating). It's entirely possible for a fuel to accomdate a higher compression ratio than the octane standard, in which case it's octane rating is proportionally greater than 100 (conceptually it's also possible for a fuel to not reach the compression ratio of the heptane standard, in which case it would have an octane rating less than zero).
Now, in the UK and Europe, they use the research method exclusively. Their octane ratings are always RON (and they have no such thing as an antiknock index). In North America they take the average of the research method and the motor method, and call the result the "pump octane rating". You'll see this on gas pumps: (R + M)/2. (there are exceptions in the US - racing fuel is often specified by RON, and av-gas is specified by MON).
For simplicity, rather than say "the average of the research method and the motor method", (R + M)/2 has also come to be known as the antiknock index, or AKI. It's just another term for octane rating.
John
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On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 21:56:29 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy

I understand how octane is determined - and since there is no such thing as more than 100% iso-octane to put in the test mix, 100 octane is as high, technically, as an "octane rating" can go. From 100 on up it is "technically" an Anti Knock Index. AKI can also be used below 100.RM/2 is used for automotive motor fuel in North America - but not for Aviation Gas.
I remember this being taght by the petroleum engineers from Texaco, Imperial and Shell when I worked for garages that sold those 3 brands of fuel "way back in the day" between 1968 and 1983. They said although often refered to as the "octane rating" anything over 100 is technically the AntiKnock Index, which in Noth America is generally referred to as "road octane" or "R+M/2" or "pump octane" while elsewhere in the world it is generally ROM - straight "research octane"
Octane sensitivity has to do with the difference between research and motor octanes. Motor Octane is also sometimes (mistakenly) referred to as "rich" octane and is the measure of anti-knock qualities under sustained high load, (accelleration at low RPM) while research octane is sometimes referred to as "lean" octane - the measure of antiknock qualities under typical mild driving.(high rpm low load) They call it sensitivity because it indicates hpw sensitive the fuel is to varying conditions of tempwrature and load.. Sensitivity of most automotive gasoline in North America is generally about 10 points.
In europe recently the sensitivity has been higher, (20 points and more), meaning some fuels (under 105RON)do not meet the required 85? minimum MON for European regulations.
Lean and Rich octane ratings are used to rate aviation fuel.. They are similar to the RON and MON , in that rich mixtures are used under high power settings, and lean under lower power settings. The "sensitivity" of Avgas is generally closer to 30 points (100-130 for instance for 100LL regular avgas) Lean rating in AvGas is always lower than rich rating, just as MON is always lower than RON in Mogas. It is a combination of actual differences in the knock resistance of the fuel and differences in the measurement protocol that contribute to tne higher "sensitivity" of AvGas.
The AvGas "lean octane"number is not necessarilly the same as the RON number would be for the same fuel, but it is close.
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There are currently 81 stations in Illinois selling ethanol-free gasoline according to the most excellent pure-gas.org website:
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=IL
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On 12/27/2015 1:58 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:

Thanks for reminding me of that. After being told of the pre-mix and using it. I went looking for premium here without success. Found that very site and, unfortunately, those are all downstate pumps subject to different regulations which are imposed on us "lucky" devils residing in NE Illinois. I can, however, head north about 15 miles and get all the premium, ETOH free gas I want.
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On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:58:50 +0000, Spalted Walt

Wow! >700 Sq. Mi. per gas station. They shouldn't make it so easy to get!
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On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 12:48:57 -0600, Unquestionably Confused

I use alcohol-free gas for my small machines (yard tractor on down). It's readily available, though expensive, here in Georgia. It doesn't surprise me that it's illegal in IL. Nothing IL does surprises me.
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On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:32:27 -0800 (PST), Michael
high octane fuel does not cause an engine to run hotter, contrary to common belief. However, running gasahol MAY cause the engine to run cooler due to reduced energy content. The chances of damage due to running "hooch" FAR outway any possibility of damage from running high-test fuel. If the octane is too low (and adding oil lowers the octane) an engine will detonate, and detonation transfers more heat to the piston, cyl, and head by disrupting the "boundary layers" causing the engine to overheat quickly.
In aircraft, the first sign of incipient detonation is a simultanious increase in head temperature and drop in EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature).
When that happens you have seconds to pull back on the throttle to avoid engine damage and possible engine failure. Doesn't matter if it's a 2 stroke ultralight or a 4 stroke Lycosaurus
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