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On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:15:15 +0100, PoP

You'll be pleased to hear that this is now client dependant; I'm on a few lists, and I use thebat! (from ritlabs just in case you didn't know, it's not exactly /famous/), and it threads them just fine! It's also rather less prone to "infections" that many others, which suits me just fine! (it can be set to not open anything at all, not to bother with html in the same way that most will, and not to use the infamous address book, all of which can really help with that stuff I have found)
Take Care, Gnube {too thick for linux}
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wrote:

Wassis? I use The Bat here and I hadn't come across this threading malarky. But then again The Bat has soooooo many features.....
PoP
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On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:30:15 +0100, PoP

It's in "View/view threads by" menu from memory! Hope this helps. Great mail package isn't it? I'll grant you it could take a lifetime to find out how great as there's quite a bit to explore.
They quite recently started doing a server too, and I have to admit to being a bit tempted to explore that too, as my ISP don't really know how its meant to be done apparently, well not for more than five minutes at a time at any rate! ;O)
Take Care, Gnube {too thick for linux}
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These are not technical issues. I have never seen a web forum that could not be better run as a newsgroup. The thing is, there are no pretty pictures on Usenet, so the newbies don't like them.
--
"The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.huge.org.uk/transport/FAQ.html
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On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:15:34 UTC, snipped-for-privacy@ukmisc.org.uk (Huge) wrote:

In principle, yes. In practice, Usenet does not offer guaranteed delivery. Web forums do.
Usenet isn't scaling well, either; it was fine when I started using it over 20 years ago. I was a news server administrator a while ago, and it was difficult enough then. It's a lot worse now; the sheer volume of data is becoming a real problem.
--
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
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[Derisive snort]
I'll start mailing all the SQL Server, ASP and Visual Basic errors to you, then, shall I?

If you don't offer the binary groups, Usenet is just fine.
--
"The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.huge.org.uk/transport/FAQ.html
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On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:48:47 UTC, snipped-for-privacy@ukmisc.org.uk (Huge) wrote:

Soffware faults are another matter, and were not what I was talking about, as you well know. Web forums may not be perfect, but I'm sure there are many that exceed Usenet in percentage of messages delivered to subscribers.

We'll just have to disagree. There is still too much out there.
--
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
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On 1 Oct 2003 14:25:31 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ukmisc.org.uk (Huge) wrote:

HP might disagree.

Most online people had Fidonet and Fidonet points 20 years ago. Usenet was not as prevalent as you make out I'm afraid. It may have been prevalent in university campuses and the like, but not in mainstream joe publics arena.

Not at all.

What a ridiculous statement to make! Of course a web forum can scale that far, and well beyond. A well managed and well implemented web site can handle thousands of visitors concurrently no problem at all, microsoft.com does that all day every day - I'm not convinced that a news server can handle that many concurrent connections (I'm not saying it can't). But this isn't comparing apples with oranges.
I'm not sure why you are so hung up about usenet being better than online forums. I'm not - I recognise that each has a place, and each has advantages and disadvantages. Beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that.
I think it would be better to get back on topic for this forum, rather than continue the my-dads-bigger-than-you-dad schoolyard discussion.
PoP
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On 28 Sep 2003 20:15:34 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ukmisc.org.uk (Huge) wrote:

To be honest usenet can't manage direct links to other related messages easily either. With a web page you can embed a link to another article very easily, and have that article popup in a separate window just as easily.
Yes I know you can add links - to pop up in a browser! What you can't do is to have your newsreader take off in another forum or thread via a link - easily done with web forums and a browser, not so with usenet newsreaders.
PoP
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Huge wrote:

That about sums it up, a lot of the screen space used by most of the web forums seems to be given up to icons, emoticons, user ratings etc. Somewhere to the side in a small box is usually about 10 lines of text, a one liner 'me too' and a nine lig sig. I subscribe to one newsgroup that's on a private server, there's no peering issues to deal with and as bandwidth issues across multiple servers aren't a problem it's a small binaries allowed group as well. I do wonder sometimes whether something similar would be of use here as a small picture or diagram often explains things better than a written explanation and there's no problems for those reading the messages offline who can't sometimes click on a pointer to a website.
--
James...
http://www.jameshart.co.uk /
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Oh, it's just you, Chris. Apart from web forums being run totally at the whim of the operator, leaving no reference record behind, each having their own lets-try-this-idea posting and searching interface, and relying on a single Web server to handle all of the traffic rather than an established application-tuned distribution architecture, their only other disadvantage is that you're totally stuck with the Forum Designer's idea of a UI, rather than being able to rely on a standard protocol (NNTP) for access to the content, for which a wide variety of useful and different interfaces are available. (Well, and Outlook too). Oh, and for those that care, the intellectual-property status of posts to Usenet is a widely-accepted community standard (all stuff on Usenet is - by the nature of the medium - clearly intended for widespread further copying, and its contents are understood to be "caveat lector" - whereas on a Web forum you're sort of bound by whatever twisted ideas on the "ownership" of both the idea-content and particular-expression the twisted IP lawyers consulted by the forum-setter-upper have dreamt up.
Apart from that[1], they're a grand idea.
Stefek
[1] subject to any other blindingly obvious or perniciously subtle drawbacks other contributors may identify shortly ;-)
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snipped-for-privacy@hp.com writes:

Hear, hear. I couldn't agree more.
--
"The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.huge.org.uk/transport/FAQ.html
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No, it's not just you. They're the Usenet equivalent of children's coloured pop-up books.
But newbies seem to like them.
--
"The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
The uk.transport FAQ; http://www.huge.org.uk/transport/FAQ.html
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They may be slow and no where near as good as proper newsgroups, but in my case their one advantage is that I can read the web forums at work. Our office system isn't set up for newsgroups and access therefore is only possible via explorer. I know you can read newsgroups via google but this is ridiculously slow for real time, great for looking at archived stuff though.
Jim
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IMO Motley Fool has better content than the newsgroup equivalents.
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Perhaps you could ask your employer to supply newsgroups so you'd waste less time on web forums?
--
*That's it! Im calling grandma!

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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On 28 Sep 2003 13:55:56 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ukmisc.org.uk (Huge) wrote:

Yes, I agree totally. One of the fundamental flaws with web forums is that they send the entire user interface over the network rather than just the message text. Unless someone changes the currently-recognised laws of physics, web forums will *always* be slower to navigate than a properly set-up usenet configuration. And you will always be limited to whatever user interface(s) the provider of the forum forces on you.
They also don't permit you to readily store and index articles locally for searching and archival (unlike usenet). And as a general rule, web forums don't allow you to do any killfiling or scoring of articles which, in a busy group like uk.d-i-y, is very important IMHO.
The only advantage to them is that some people who don't know much about computers or the Internet (but may be knowledgable on other topics) sometimes use them. As a general rule though, I find them more hassle than they're worth (even with a nice high-speed, low-latency Internet connection), regardless of the fact that some of them might offer potentially useful information.
Still, I applaud ScrewFix for setting up their forums. If nothing else, it will help to keep the riff-raff out of here!
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IMHO most online fora are useable. i.e. you can get at the content you need and and post your own questions/comments without too much grief. Again IMHO they tend to be run by specialists and/or enthusiasts and not necessrily of general enough interest to justify a Usenet NG (although there is some low usage and wierd stuff out there). So: if the web forum meets your needs, use it. if it needs improving, tell the owner if you prefer a NG then propose one and see if you get the votes
In some cases the web fora (e.g. http://www.adslguide.org.uk /) are more targetted to user needs than the more generalised NG. They also tend to be part of a more complex site which offers news, reviews etc.
Some are very specific to the use and support of a range of equipment (e.g. http://www.solwiseforum.co.uk/ ).
So full marks to Screwfix - they provide a resource, gain marketing information, and focus feedback on their services. Saves them trawling the NGs to look for adverse or positive comment, as some others do.
It also allows close control of posting; you have to sign on to use the service. This may help reduce the SPAM content a bit :-) although this doesn't seem a major issue on uk.d-i-y.
I find that when I am researching some problem, that I get general information from NGs and pick up pointers to more detailed fora from within the NG - which, like FAQs, can help reduce the repetitive posting of basic questions.
Cheers Dave R
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