Alarm advice with cats in mind.

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I can't sescribe in words, sorry. Try learning any practical trade from a book and you'll understand.

Christ, I didn't say YOU HAVE to believe me!
Tell you what, describe to me here on this group how to strip wall paper. In words I (and everyone else) can understand. Then tell me how to paint, plumb, wire, etc. All in words.
Get the point? Have you got time?!
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IMM is alive and well.
--
*Don't squat with your spurs on *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:03:26 UTC, Dave Plowman

No, he's just jealously guarding teh knowledge so he can charge lots of money...
Apropos of which, who's read Deathworld 2 by Harry Harrison? (there is a a connection, unless I mis-remember and it's Deathworld 3).
--
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
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You must be some magician if you can conceal cables totally without chasing them in. Nor would I even consider a wireless type - even if they had been available when I installed it.
<snip>

Fathom it out? The remote panel at the front door tells me which zone - if any - is not 'set'. And can be isolated from there if necessary. Tell me, does it take *you* ages to fathom out a simple fault like this?

You're not well up on electrics, are you? It's an electrical wholesaler often mentioned on here.

Yes, it is every bit as secure as the main panel - perhaps more so. Of course, I wouldn't expect you to be able to design such thing, let alone understand it.

I'm glad I took advice from a true professional, then, the local crime prevention officer.

It works well and has done since it was installed with zero problems. Not, luckily, that it's ever been needed in anger. And I take it then your work *is* too the same standard as all the others - cables everywhere, or just tucked underneath carpets? Personally, I'd rather be burgled than look at that sort of a mess all day...

Perhaps the 'new' fad for wood floors taxed your cable hiding ability too much?

So you know better than the relevant standards makers too? Figures.
I'm afraid I'm putting you in the same box as IMM - full of theories and hot air.
--
*I love cats...they taste just like chicken.

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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No, just experienced.

Oh so you have a suitable high-tec panel with multiple annunciation and yet connect it to a home made relay interface! Ok.

No, I'm not up on electrics. I'm well up on alarms and security though and that is exactly what this thread is all about! Sorry but I only know of proper pucker alarm wholesalers - not sell-it-alls.

Oh dear... here we go! The last time I played with relays was late 70's. I dropped them in favout of IC's. Maybe you need to do the same.

WHAT???? a CPO???!!! They know the square root of fuck all about alarm systems. They know the bare basics and that's it. They give basic advice and then a list of professional installers. How do I know? cos not only have I dealt with them for 25 years I also worked with then as a support officer for 4 years when the job became civvy.
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From a distance. Your method described elsewhere wouldn't have worked in my situation - do you *really* think I'd have chased the cable in if all that was needed was a longer drill - which I have in any case?

I'm not going to bother explaining why to one with a closed mind.

Err, if you don't know the company, how can you know what they do and don't supply? Closed mind again.

I'd suggest you learn a bit about electronics. A relay isn't necessarily a mechanical device. And in any case, mechanical relays are still very much in evidence as they are far more robust to contact abuse than a solid state equivalent.

You don't seem to support them very well, then. They also appear to know FA - as does everyone but you.
--
*Snowmen fall from Heaven unassembled*

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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Ands like I said in an earlier posy it's impossible to describe EVERY situation here. What I can say with condidence though is that I could have done your door without chasing and re-decorating and no wiring showing. I can say this because I have never yet come across a door that I couldn't do and that includes doors on some very nice old buildings where, at initial inspection, one says "f**k"!. Your modest house (your words not mine) would be little challange to any well trained installer using the proper kit.

No, not a closed mind but If I've not heard of them after 25 years in the game I just have to assume they're not a proper alarm/security wholesaler and are in fact a sell-it-all liek many other electrical suppliers.
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What - poking out a hole at the bottom of the skirting as you describe? No thanks - I'm happy I did it my way.
--
*Letting a cat out of the bag is easier than putting it back in *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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Errr no, no cable poking out of any hole. It'd be under the floor.
Anyway, enough. Your opinion of what you have done seems to be the most important thing in this conversation whereas I tried to offer good honest sensible advice. I'll not respond to any more of your silly comments/arguments. You're doubtless happy so carry on regardless.
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Your advice seems to be that only you know this sort of work, and that all other experts in this field are rubbish. So I'll make my own judgments - given that I've heard this tale from so many before.
Nobody knows everything there is to know about any subject, and those that do think they do deserve what they get.
--
*Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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I never suggested that at all and considering there are no other similar experts in this thread then I consider my opinion much more important that yours, especially considering that you admit to being non-professional.

Some people actually do know everything about certain subjects though. That's why they're called experts, professors, etc!
The end.
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"Dave Plowman" wrote | PJO wrote: | > As for "switches" on doors and windows... a complete and utter waste | > of time and money. Contacts on windows are all well and good providing | > the burglar opens the window! Most of the time they smash through | > leaving the opening frame in place and therefore not causing an alarm. | I've been burgled once and had a couple of attempts (before the alarm was | fitted). Each time they levered open - or attempted to - a sash window. | Most casual burglars don't want to crawl through broken glass - would you? | Same with my neighbours that have been burgled.
I think many intruders will try to spring a frame open as it makes less noise than smashing a window - and this country has a significantly high level of burglaries whilst the occupants are at home.
Window contacts can detect an attempted intrusion rather than waiting until the intruder has entered the property, which has got to be reassuring.
Also, perimeter protection means that occupants can wander around the house at night with the alarm (part) set - especially important with bungalows (although a PIR in the loft can be useful in modern bungalows with tile roofs which are vulnerable).
Owain
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ONLY IF THE WINDOW IS OPENED!!!!!! If the frame is forced from the wall - no alarm! If the glass is broken and access made through the space - no alarm!

Yes, but the perimeter protection needs to be proper - not contacts. With contacts, for example, you can't have a window open for ventilation while the alarm is set. With inertias you can.
As for a PIR in the loft... yes, great idea - until summer when the loft gets hot and the PIR goes asleep! Oh dear, you didn't know about that did you??!!
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wrote:

I don't think these are the same ones. There was nothing in the instructions for the ones I installed about positioning them with regard to animals. The method of operation you describe does not rely on the weight or size of the animal which is quoted in the spec.
In my installation one is aimed at a flight of stairs, no way the cat could be on the stairs and not in range of the detector, yet it does *not* set it off, but a human anywhere in range does.
--
Niall

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That's because the detector has a micro processor to analyse the IR field and so the detector is "deciding" not to activate when it sees the cat.
What I am saying is that these type of sensors do work but are not fool proof. If, for instance, your cat gets a fright and charges up the stairs the detector will "probably" go into alarm. People with a dog anything bigger than small should also avoid these sensors as the IR field from the dog could cause an activation as the PIR has to alarm should there be any possibility of an intruder and a medium to large dog will produce the same amount of IR energy than a small human (kid).
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the simple kind of pet resistant movement sensor uses a special lens to lift the infra red beam above the level of the animal. fine with dogs that stay on one level but not cats that can climb. but the good news is there are now movement detectors (been around about five years) that allow for one or two cats (or other animals) up to a certain weight. They need careful siting, usually not permiting the animals to be closer than 6 feet ie no good positioning them above a table or chair. They do work and ive fitted a number with no trouble. they are less sensitive than a normal sensor but do the job.

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snipped-for-privacy@uboot.com (Mortimer) wrote in message

Have a look here:-
http://www.pyronix.co.uk/english/products/dual/petimmune/petimmune.htm
and a desciption of how a person crawling along the floor is differentiated from a pet:-
http://www.pyronix.co.uk/english/products/dual/petimmune/petimmune_spec.htm
HTH
Neil
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Yes, agreed and all very good providing your cat doesn't jump onto a worktop within range of the PIR! These new technology PIR's are brilliant but are far from fool proof. Expect false alarms and if you don't get any it'll be a bonus! In any event use a dual tec unit in a kitchen as I mentioned earlier and as illustrated on the above pyronix site.
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A dual-tech microwave/infra-red detector that goes by weight immunity is the best for animals that are prone to jump about on furniture and things. Pyronix, along with many other makers, have a range of these designs. The Pyronix are marked with a product number which ends with PI.
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Hi
Few more pointers: always use a dual detection triggered control panel. Numerous alarm systems without this feature have been fitted, they frequently lead to repeating false alarms, and the owners give up using them.
Second be careful where you mount door opening detectors, as door warping or wind can set them off. They are a big source of false alarms.
Third cover your desired area with more than one technology. Only when both detect an intruder do you want the system to go off. Most sensors are prone to some cause of false alarm or other.
Glass break sensors are useful (not foil strips).
There are burglar identifying paints and burglar trapping smoke bombs, and of course CCTV if you have money to spend. Note only a high res colour one is worth having - you cant seriously identify someone off a junk grade picture.
If you fit all this, make sure youve got locks worth having to start with. Night latches are mostly hopeless, and 2 lever locks are easy to open, use 5 levers and more than one locking point.
Finally tamperproof wiring is a bonus to protect against the more determined attackers, but you dont need this in most cases.
Of course it all costs money, hence the temptation to go for a cheapass solution. Trouble is, 3 PIRs and a single event tripping system isnt really a solution.
Regards, NT
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