A dose of realism, please

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geoff wrote:

At least my response was one that erred on the "safe" side - I could well understand an uproar if I told the OP that gas work was easily undertaken by even the most inexperienced of DIYers. It's entirely possible that the OP could have unwittingly given a passing novice a false impression that gas is safe to work with - in that respect it's probably just as well that this issue has been debated for the good of everyone reading this NG.
I've made my error (it seems a common misconception as well), acknowledged it and thanked the person who gave me the necessary details showing me the error of my ways. I've learnt something. However, all you've done is pass down sanctimonious judgement - that teaches me and others who read this group nothing.
I suppose you were born an expert in all things DIY? If only *experts* are allowed to post then I guess this board will die a gradual death over time as the experts move on and noone is prepared to proffer an opinion for fear of being shot down in flames.
That said, I can well understand the danger of offering *dangerous* advice on this board and I try not to get involved if I think that the issue at hand is likely to maime or kill someone if mishandled.
RM
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Medallion Man wrote:

Just had a thought though...
If you can find an "independent" person to get a second opinion from, it is possible that he's simply trying to sell a new system when it ain't necessary.
Of course, the "independent" bit is the killer - anyone that you call in to look at this may err on his side as it may mean more work for them if they can persuade you to go with them for the replacement.
If you can find "a friend of a friend" who is sympathetic to your situation - they may be able to give an honest second opinion.
RM
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Medallion Man wrote:

Low end of price range, but possible.

But you're not comparing like-for-like. If you're trying to see if he's ripping you off, assign an hoursly rate to your time in the same way he does.

Water + gas not hard. Flue - depends. What if the new flue is a different shape/location to the current one? May mean enlarging hole through wall, making good afterwards etc. Easily add a couple of hours to the job.

Let's assume you get your 350 boiler. Say it takes 3 hours to do a straight swap (drain down, remove old boiler, install new one, fill back up + bleed). Allow another couple of hours for things that go wrong. Call it 5 hours total tops. At say 50ph, that's 250. Plus your 50 for commissioning makes 300. Plus boiler is 650. Plus VAT.
So his price is high, but your estimate is low. Reality is somewhere in between.
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Yeah, it's more than likely true.

Where do you get a 12Kw boiler from these days ?
For a boiler that will be nearly a thousand times more efficient than the one you already have, and will probably save you more in running cost over the first year, then yeah, it's not to bad.

That's even better than the 1,100 you were first quoted then, providing you get the subsady, even better deal for a profesional job.

Good thinking about the profesional commisioning bit, but where is it 50 ?

For a boiler that had better last another twenty years, professionally installed and serviced for the length of time of its makers warranty. I think it's not a bad price.
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Our boiler service man (small local guy, not BGas) has been saying that to us every year for the past 11.
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On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:55:37 +0000, Huge wrote:

A few weeks ago I posted a poll of the causes of of boiler death based on my experience. Main causes were 1) Incorrect installation --> Severe primary circuit corrosion. 2) Too much inefficiency relative to modern offereings so not worth repairing minor fault. 3) Refrubishments - especially needing better pressure DHW in flats without excessive costs 3) Refurbishments - space saving of the cylinder.
Now the new ones that have gone in suffer none of the above problems so there will have to be some new reasons for boiler death.
There may be some people who will fall out with a particular make/model because of unreliability and/or excessive spare part costs?
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Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
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I think you mean nearing the end of its lifespan and more economical and sensible to replace.
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"Ed Sirett" wrote | A few weeks ago I posted a poll of the causes of of boiler death | based on my experience. Main causes were [snip] | Now the new ones that have gone in suffer none of the above | problems so there will have to be some new reasons for boiler | death.
Damaged gaskets from repeated power flushing by British Gas :-)
Owain
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What causes that corrosion, out of interest ?
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On 31 Oct 2003 03:55:00 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (Medallion Man) wrote:

Generally lack of inhibitor chemical and/or air being introduced into the system often because the header tank is not plumbed to the correct places on the system.
.andy
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On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 03:55:00 +0000, Medallion Man wrote:

I did not clock your original question - so I've looked back to the start to find it.
I assume that you are entirely happy with the performace of the existing system both for heating and HW, (i.e. control, flow & pressure).
If your current system complies with Part L of the current building regs (which I doubt) then a straight swap might be suitable.
However I suspect there are at least some of the folowing 'deficiencies'.
1) No wall thermostat. 2) No independant control of water temperature. 3) No TRVs on cooler and less used rooms. 4) Existing boiler is not available as a replacement due to it being no longer compliant with the efficiency standards.
Thus: The straight swap is likely out. You could of course fit your own if you can find the original model or a similar model.
There will be no probelm find a selection of boilers that have or can be made to have 12kW output.
I would start with a Vaillant 615e system boiler and would charge about 1400 (london prices).
As for weather the quality of the boilers is better or worse now or yeasterday that is hard to say. Clearly a lump of cast iron with very simple controls and control of corrosion (usually caused by wrong pipework and/or leaving out inhibitor) can last a very long time, but also waste a lot of gas.
This is the upper bound: [BTW I see BG are quoting you could save 37% on your gas bill with a new boiler (this sounds like an extreme case to me). ] Hmmm.... let's see how they can work that one out. New condensing boiler SEDBK 90% so gas burnt for 100 kWh of heat is 111 kWh Gas previously consumed 111 * (1/1-0.37) = 176 kWh SEDBUK efficiency of old system 100/176 = 56.8% Let's see what guzzlers have that sort of efficency. The SEDBUK database lists just one model at or below that figure. So unless you have that one make. you won't save that much.
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Does he carry an electron microscope to measure the thickness?
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Dave Plowman wrote:

Even if he did, he'd have to cut a sample out of the heat exchanger, prepare it and scan it. It would be very time consuming.
A sophisticated ultrasound setup is probably the only way you could do it non-destructively.
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Course not.
And even if he did, he couldn't, 'cos electron microscopes can't do that.
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Well, surveyors carry damp meters that don't work so why penalise a poor plumber?
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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?????
How many boilers built today are going to last 20 years ?
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geoff

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writes

Virtually all, if they are installed, commissioned and maintained correctly. Many boilers are replaced because the parts to get it working are approaching a new boiler. If parts are available there is no reason why a boiler should not last 20 years.
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writes

killer
I have more experience than you in these things. The manufacturers are certainly not building boilers to last
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Maxie, you think you have.

Maxie, they are building them to last, depending on maker, some more than others. Certain over priced parts to force people into a new model is another point entirely. The point is that if the system is "installed" and "designed" well, commissioned correctly and maintained correctly (e.g, replacing inhibitor every 3-5 years) they will last 20 years - if parts fail then they can be replaced (assuming availability of parts). It is very simple.
A few years back a friend approached me in a panic as her 9 year old combi had stopped working. It was a Ravenheat. I asked her when was the last time it had been serviced. She said "never, does it need to be?". The pressure vessel had blown and most of the water in the system was not there as the pressure relief valve would squirt it out. I looked at it, and found the following points: new pressure vessel, new pump as the existing was making loud noises and was ready to pack up, a new 3-way valve, new auto air vent, new control board as the auto air vent was leaking and dripped water all over the board below and possibly a new igniter box too. "ALL" parts were available and the combi could have been brought back to life and operated for another 9 years, if she kept and eye on the pressure gauge of course. I said let's rips it out and I fitted a Wickes Combi 102 (Halstead Ace High) with a 2 year guarantee, as it was the most cost effective thing to do as this poor combi had been badly neglected.
The Ravenheat didn't have enough failsafe lockouts on it as it operated with virtually no water pressure. Better boilers have a low water pressure system lockout.
A further e.g., the Ariston Microgenus's heat exchanger is a simple 45 minute job to do and cost around 100. Most would scrap the boiler if the heat exchanger went and pay 40-500 for a new combi.
The economic argument to scrap or repair is a separate point to longevity.
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