Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater

[58plumbers]

I read the article you referenced at

It doesn't say WHERE the 41,045 BTU number cames from.

What is this "magic" number of 41,045 BTU?

[58plumbers]

Why do you use 41,045 BTU in one calculation when you have the EF in hand and 41,045,000 BTU in the reverse calculation when you're trying to determine the EF?

What is this "magic" number 41.045 anyway?

[Bob Shuman]

If you do self installation, like most of the audience on your target newsgroups, then the warranty means a big deal. If you pay someone to install, then it may not be as important, especially if the design, materials, and construction quality is identical.

Bob

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message news:ofFsj.8363$ [e-mail]...

[58plumbers]

at

Wrong reference.

The right reference is The document that has that calculation is $FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf But it still doesn't say where the "magic" 41,045 BTU comes from.

[hallerb]

having only 1 heater leak before the warranty ran out, and as far as i know its still a pro rata warranty....

number of installed months, vs number of warranteed months, gives a percentage, thats then applied to a brand new similiar heater at full list price

on that one heater the sale price was less than the pro rata price, kinda mad i bought my new one somewhere else........

warrantys are sales tools, they rarely help the purchaser much. wheres your original invoice? company like sears might no longer be in business in 8 years.........

just look at all the retailers who have goine out of business over the years.....

a warranty from builders square or hechinger isnt worth the paper its written on........

the BTU # is from the manufacturer, they vary from under 30,000 BTU to

75,000 BTU on my current tank.

higher btus cost more to build, better stronger burner and heavier tank to take the added heat.

[58plumbers]

I can't say that I know what the 41,045 BTU is in the calculation but it can't be different for different gas burners because it's the same number no matter what gas heater you use.

So it must be some kind of other "magic" number.

[58plumbers]

Next time, do these 10 steps twice a year & your heater will last 20 years!

1. Shut the electricity/gas to your water heater
2. Close the cold water intake at the top of the water heater
3. Open a hot water faucet on any level above the water heater
4. Open the drain valve at the bottom of your water heater
5. Shut the drain valve when that water runs clear (approx 10 gallons)
6. Inspect the sacrificial anode (replace rod only if corroded badly)
7. Shut the water faucet that you had opened in the house
8. Reopen the cold water valve intake to the water heater
9. Run all faucets in the house for at least 10 second (or sputtering stops)
10. Turn electricity/gas back on

[trader4]

n

I don't believe it's accurate to say these tests were designed by the industry. The manufacturers of water heaters certainly gave there opinions and suggestions, but the actual test standards were arrived at by the EPA. And different manufacturers have different opinions of how the various water heaters should be tested. They were not even close to being all in agreement.

However, I do agree with most of what you posted. Tests have to assume some type of typical usage to come up with a way to do the tests. And just like with cars, your mileage may vary, especially if your usage is substantially different than the tests. And once the tests are set in place, manufacturers will start to tweak there designs to play the spec game. That's why I wouldn't go crazy trying to figure this out to the last decimal place.

When I needed a new water heater, I went with another 50 gal unit, which was what I already had. I did look at the energy efficieny ratings and concluded that for my usage an average unit would be fine. I went down to HD, bought it and installed it in one day. It has a eff rating of .56, and cost me I think about $300 7 years ago. I wasn't gonna lose sleep worrying over whether a .58 or .61 was gonna make enough difference to be worth it.

I did get a 10 year warranty, which came in handy about 2 years ago. The thermocouple went and State, who was the manufacturer, had a new one here in 2 days for free.

[Lou]

in

installation?

So, how are you counting your time? The work itself may take an hour or so, but the plumber also has to drive to and from the installation site, and that takes time. Sometimes the plumber will also have to drive to the store or warehouse and pick up the heater.

And let's not forget that in order to drive, s/he needs a vehicle, one that is probably more or less dedicated to the business, and that has to be paid for also.

According to

the median wage for a plumber in 2002 was $19.30/hour. Assuming a 40 hour work week for 50 weeks a year, that comes to $38,600/year. Doesn't sound like a way to get rich quick.

A question on the cost of the permit - how much would it cost if you went to the town office and got the permit yourself?

[Lou]

Vehicle mileage estimates, or for that matter any estimates, are based on a load of assumptions. Your actual experience will vary according to how closely your situation matches the assumptions. By the way, vehicle manufacturers follow a standard test procedure specified by federal law, and the EPA confirms 10%-15% of the results by conducting its own tests.

I agree that the rated fuel consumption for motor vehicles is off - I haven't averaged that low for at least 15 years. For instance, my car is rated 20/29 for city/highway - last week I averaged 33.2 mpg in about 440 miles of mixed driving according to the car's odometer and the reading on the pump when I gassed up on Friday evening. According the average mileage display on the dashboard of the car, I got 34.1 mpg, and I suppose the difference could be due to the attendant (no self service gas in NJ) filling the tank right up to the gas cap and/or inaccuracies in the pump or odometer, or even simply to the fact that I fill up the tank at the end of the day (when the car and the gas is at its warmest) but do about half my driving in the morning (when the gas is the coolest). Which means simply that a full measured gallon on a Friday afternoon is probably less than a gallon on Monday morning simply due to the expansion and contraction that go with changes in temperature.

[Lou]

I think it matters no matter who does the installation - either way, you didn't have pay for a new heater.

[Lou]

You keep all of that stuff, and not just in case you ever need to invoke the warranty - you keep it for tax or insurance purposes.

You keep this stuff in a file folder in a drawer - it takes a few second to put it there when you buy something new. Or in the case of something like a water heater, you put it in a plastic bag and tape it to the appliance.

[Lou]

The labels show the estimated annual energy usage AND the estimated annual cost, based on an average cost of fuel. Take the energy usage and multiply by your own fuel cost assumptions.

performance

I doubt that your calculations are "true" - in the way that you initially didn't account for the time value of money, I didn't see that you took into account the changing cost of fuel. What is today a $25.00 annual saving could be a $50.00, $75.00, $100.00 (make your own assumptions) annual saving a year or three down the line. Nor did you account for general inflation, or even the normal tendency for people's income to rise over time - today's annual payback might mean an hour or two of work a year, but assuming constant fuel costs, it'll probably be less work time a year or two down the line.

You can estimate payback periods only by making a cat's cradle of assumptions.

[James Sweet]

The expansion and contraction based on temperature for a volume as small as a tank of fuel in a car are so tiny that you'd never be able to measure them with anything around the house, and certainly not the odometer in your car. The fuel temperature varies over a range of perhaps 60F max, usually much less.

[John Robertson]

The gas water heater in my house was old when I bought the place in

1998...and it is still running fine. I think it is about twenty years old - no leaks so far! And I had three teenagers living here for a number of years...

John :-#)#

[N8N]

Just to be devil's advocate, I used to have a Rabbit GTI that I got with a bad gas cap; the first time I parked it in the sun with a full tank of gas, the fuel started pouring out around the gas cap and down the quarter panel :(

nate

[hallerb]

the energy guide labels on appliances arent really to determine exact operating costs/

their real value is in comparing efficenies in a general way.

obviously a home with 8 kids will use a lot more hot water than a single guy living alone.

with so many variables, incoming water temp, desired water temp, amount of water used, cost of gas, etc etc,.

everything is a estimate

[Bob Shuman]

In my case, it was not pro-rated. I was given a new gas HWH by Sears to replace the one that developed the small leak within the 7-year tank rust out warranty period. I did need to bring them the old tank though, which was not an issue.

Bob

[Lou]

Well, maybe I'm calculating wrong. There's an approximately 3% difference between what I calculate as my miles per gallon for last week and what the car calculated. The coefficient of expansion of gasoline is 0.069% per Fahrenheit degree. Coincidentally, over a 30 degree temperature difference, that's between a 2% and a 3% change in volume. For 15 gallons of gas, that comes somewhere between 3 and 4 ounces of gas.

The meter on the pump reads out several digits to the right of the decimal point - it appears that this level of accuracy is available at the gas station. The odometer reads out only to the tenth of a mile, which means that I don't have the accuracy at my end to calculate this by hand. I don't know what the internal accuracy is when the car computes average miles per gallon - I presume the fuel pump knows pretty precisely how much gas it's pumped, and the odometer measures distance covered by counting revolutions of something (one of the wheels?), and it seems reasonable that the internal accuracy of the car's computation is more than adequate to notice a difference of this magnitude.

I guess the other consideration is that the car is likely computing average mpg using the gas burned (or at least, pumped to the engine) while any by hand calculation is basing it on gas bought, and any difference the fill level will throw the result off. Last week, the attendant took great pains to fill the tank right up to the brim (he was evidently trying to get the total to come out to a whole dollar amount), something that usually doesn't happen. So I have no problem believing that I bought slightly more gas than I burned.

Whichever figure is right and whatever the explanation, it still seems to me that the mileage estimates published by the EPA are too low, and it's seemed that way ever since I started paying attention (way too many years ago).

[Tony Hwang]

Hi, EPA figure is based on sea level wht IDEAL driving condition, weather, road, wind, temp., etc.