Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater

Hi Bob, My husband returns tomorrow. I'll give him all your information and then tell him what choice to make! Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo
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Home depot told me there was sales tax on everything except the permit.

They tax the heater at 8.75%, they tax the $400 service at the same rate so just the tax is about $70 USD (assuming a $400 heater + $400 service).

Given the permit is a tax of its own kind, I'm kind'a surprised they don't tax the tax out here.

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

In California, the only thing they don't tax is death and taxes.

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

I figured that. I was referring to the uncounted costs of doing it oneself.

jak

Reply to
jakdedert

Donna,

Why should a water heater be any different then any other purchasing decision? (Referring to your telling your husband what to do on this...)

:)

Bob

"D>> I already posted my thoughts on warranty as well in a previous reply. >> The

Reply to
Bob Shuman

I'm not particularly enamored of the Impala to be perfectly honest with you... it's a little underpowered, doesn't handle well, is very loud inside, and has lots of little ergonomic glitches. Plus I've heard the

3800 is the engine to get, not the 3.4. The newer (06-up) cars have a 3.5 as the base engine and at least one of my complaints (awful door handles that eat your fingernails) has been fixed, although I haven't driven one...)

Of course, I may be biased as my previous two daily drivers were a Porsche 944 and a VW GTI 1.8T, so I may be slightly spoiled by good cars...

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

You're pretty much right, although you still might find that within a particular model line there are some quality/efficiency/construction differences between the 6-year and 12-year models. you'll have to evaluate those on a case by case basis though.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Please don't do that when I'm drinking coffee... my nose is burning now... Somehow I seriously doubt you're related to SWMBO but you certainly sound like you could be! :)

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

e quoted text -

more expensive heater tend to have better materials, like brass drain valves rater than plastic ones. plastics only job is to drain once at end of life.. helped a buddy his plastic valves stem snapped off trying to open it.....

we pushed the heater over on its side, and drained thru the fill lines and T&P valve

a full 50 gallon tank is heavy,,,,,

400 pounds of water and at least a couple hundred for tank
Reply to
hallerb

Whatever magic it is, googling for 41045 BTU gets *lots* of related PDFs!

Residential ACM Manual: Water Heating Calculation Method, page 8

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standard energy in the hot water delivered, 41,045 Btu/day.

Comments on Energy Star Ratings of Home Water Heaters, Page 5

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the formula: 41,045 Btu/EF($/Btu)*365

ENERGY STAR Residential Water Heaters: Analysis, page 10

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consumption estimated using the DOE test procedure. Based on the following formula: (41,045 BTU/EF x 365)/100,000

LIFE CYCLE COSTS AND SAVINGS FOR WATER HEATING SYSTEMS, page 3

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annual delivered energy is 14.98 MMBtu (41045 Btu/day).

OPERATING GUIDELINES AND STANDARDS FOR WATER HEATING SYSTEMS, page 32

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Energy Draw 43.302 MJ (41,045 Btu)

Consumers Directory of Home Water Heater Ratings, page

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$FILE/12-07-oil-rwh.pdfUsing the formula: 41045 Btu/EF($/Btu)*365

Calculating water heater costs for meaningful comparisons

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need to know the unit cost of fuel

365 × 41045/EF × fuel cost (BTU) = estimated annual cost of operation 365 × 0.4105/EF × fuel cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation

Review of hot water heaters

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X 41045/EF X Fuel Cost (BTU) = estimated annual cost of operation

365 X 0.4105/EF X Fuel Cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation

On-demand water heaters, page 8

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x cost per therm of gas x 365 / EF = yearly cost to operate

etc.

I would guess any engineer should be able to tell us what this 41,045 magic number really is.

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

I'm surprised a chemist or engineer isn't on this group.

I think this is the fundamental answer!

page 11, Water Heating Calculations

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kJ/day is 41,045 Btu/day is the energy delivered to the hot water load per day

And, this one says most plumbers don't understand the efficiency factor for home water heaters

Residential Gas Water Heating: Program Design & Specification Considerations, page 6

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Savings (Therms/year) is based on the DOE Test Procedure: (41,045 Btu/EF*365)/100,000

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

of operation

ost of operation

maybe its a test standard somehow.

i have seen tanks under 30,000 BTU

Reply to
hallerb

Hello Donna, thank you for the information but I feel you have got the wrong end of the stick. Oh dear, how silly of you. BOMP parts and contact numbers can only be obtained for existing suppliers. I am referring to the design of a complete new system. For that I was wondering if you knew of a suitable CAD-CAM freeware application.

Or perhaps one of your friends in the groups you post your detailed and painstaking posts might know? After all I think Bill would be pleased to see the spirit of self-survival at work in the modern age if we were all to design our own hot water systems. We could choose the amount of certain types of metal to match our individual eco-preferences.

For instance, you probably like one metal but I like another. I think it's all to do with our different respective star signs because they are associated with different substances for jewels. And so, logic dictates the answer that it must be the same for metals. You would design a hot water system which minimized one metal and maximized another. I would do so with different metals. Of course we would extend this to control equipment and also to distribution equipment (I think Bill calls these "pipes").

Oh Donna, you're such a great help. Our project is more assured of success with such skills to hand. Can you let me have a link to a freeware app which can do this. I mentioned my other requirements earlier about linking in to BOMP and inventory. For now, accounts receivable will have to wait as we are not apying anyone until we have completed our first design. How's your own design coming on? You certainly have amassed a lot of information about water heating and I am sure we can assist anyone who is new at this.

For the same reason I do not think we should restrict ourselves only to gas water heaters. Eco-friendliness must permit all fuels. I think we will soon have a true winner on our hands.

Please let me know what freeare CADCAM you are using. My keyboard is poised! Let's get started.

Reply to
Franklin

Thank you for all the advice! You've given us the courage to tackle this ourselves! Bill and I read *every* post here!

To replace our dripping 40-gallon (65-gallon FHR) home water heater, we bought the best water heater I could find.

This turned out to be the $450 Sears #33154 (actually manufactured by AO Smith) 97-gallon First Hour Rating (FHR) and 0.63 Energy Factor (EF), nominally with a 50-gallon tank and coming with a (rather useless) 12-year warranty on parts and a slightly useful 1-year warranty on labor.

We're going to do the job tomorrow so I'm reading *everything* I can find on the net on how to properly remove and install a natural gas home hot water heater. I'll summarize the steps we plan on taking in a subsequent posting.

So far, Bill bought $686.47 in parts while I write up every step for him before we do the work tomorrow, together. He will return any unused parts, but here is what he bought from Sears today to get ready for the job.

$449.00 Sears #33154 50-gallon 12/1 year hot water heater 97FHR .63EF $ 2.19 1-ounce TFE paste (for the gas pipe fittings) $ 9.59 3/4-inch quarter-turn water valve (replaces plastic drain valve) $ 8.99 3/4-inch CSA gas ball valve (for the gas line) $ 15.99 3/4-inch swing check valve (for additional heat-loss protection) $ 7.99 18" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2) $ 7.49 15" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2) $ 5.99 12" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2) $ 12.99 18" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2) $ 10.99 12" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2) $ 8.99 3/4-inch by 3/4-inch Dialectric Union B (x4) $ 3.59 1.5-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x4) $ 2.39 1.0-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x3) $ 52.32 sales tax at 8.25%

-------- $686.47 total

The reason for *both* the copper flex pipe and stainless steel pipe is because the stainless steel might allow us to not need the dialectric unions which are huge. Remember, the new tank is five inches taller than the old tank so we are going to have problems with the plumbing most likely so having fewer nipples and dialectric unions will shorten the lines a bit.

Do we really need to isolate the copper from the brass from the steel? We assume so.

Also, we bought the extra one-way check valve even though the water heater apparently comes with heat-loss protectors and we can s-kink the flex lines (not the steel lines, just the copper lines).

Do you think the one-way hot-water-outlet check valve will work to slow heat loss?

Note we didn't buy the insulating blanket for the water heater, nor the insulation for the hot-water pipes yet. We figured we could do that later.

Our biggest question is whether we really needed the dialectric unions. Since they were female:female, that necessitated brass nipples on each side, further lengthening the lines which we need to shorten.

What do you think? Donna & Bill

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:02:31 -0700, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote: > We're going to do the job tomorrow so I'm reading *everything* I can find

Here are the steps I wrote up for Bill. I post this to you *before* we tackle the job tomorrow morning. Did we miss anything important that you have told us to do? Is anything out of order that you suggested? Can we skip any of the steps outlined below? Your timely advice will help us and anyone following this thread! Thanks, Donna

HOT-WATER-HEATER REMOVAL:

While the old dripping hot-water heater is still firmly in place ...

- Shut natural gas at the main gas meter

- Shut natural gas at the local hot-water heater

- Ensure the pilot light is out before separating any gas plumbing lines

- Shut the household cold water at the main water valve

- Shut the cold-water inlet to the hot-water heater

- Open all hot-water faucets in the house to drain off pressure

- Wait two hours, if possible, to allow the hot water in the tank to cool

- Connect a garden hose to the water heater drain valve

- Open drain valve and drain hot water where it will not damage anything

- Disconnect garden hose and close drain valve when done (40 or 50 gallons)

- Unbolt earthquake straps (if any)

- Unscrew the sheet-metal screw holding the vent pipe to the draft hood

- Separate the vent pipe from the draft hood

- Unscrew the cold-water inlet at the nipple at the top of the tank

- Unscrew the hot-water outlet at the nipple at the top of the tank

- Unscrew the natural gas inlet to the water-heater thermostat

- Cap the newly disconnected natural gas line to prevent contamination

- Unscrew sheet-metal screws holding gas-flue hat onto the vent pipe

- Separate the vent pipe from the gas-flue hat

- Remove old heater off the elevated base

- Remove all water plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve

- Remove all gas plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve

HOT-WATER-HEATER REPLACEMENT:

While the new hot-water heater is sitting on the garage floor ...

- Remove the plastic drain valve & replace with a brass ball valve

- Install the new temperature and pressure (T&P) relief valve

- Install the relief valve relief pipe

- Always use two wrenches when screwing and unscrewing pipe fittings! MOUNT THE TANK & POSITION THE VENT AND HOOD:

- Mount and level the new hot water heater on the elevated base

- Ensure at least six inches of clear space all around the new heater

- Hacksaw the old gas vent so that it fits the new larger water heater

- Ensure the gas vent aligns with the center of the hot-water heater

- Insert legs of the draft hood into the holes in the top of the heater

- Drill a 1/8 inch hole into the draft hood and 3-inch vent pipe

- Screw in at least 1 sheet-metal screw from the vent hood to the vent pipe ATTACH THE COLD WATER INLET:

- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of the fittings supplied with the tank

- Insert the blue heat-trap fitting (arrow down) into the tank cold-water inlet

- Ensure the last two threads are never covered with Teflon tape

- Do not use pipe dope on any threads where Teflon tape is noted below

- Screw the cold-water inlet male:male nipple into the top of the tank

- Wrap Teflon tape on the thread of the galvanized 3/4" water-inlet pipe

- Screw a dialectric union on the 3/4" galvanized cold-water inlet pipe

- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of each male:male brass nipple

- Screw the brass male:male nipple on the female:female dialectric union

- Screw a new ball-valve shutoff onto this vertical cold-water inlet pipe

- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of another male:male brass nipple

- Screw this male:male nipple into the new ball-valve shutoff

- Screw the copper flex pipe onto the cold-water inlet brass nipples ATTACH THE HOT WATER OUTLET:

- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of the fittings supplied with the tank

- Ensure the last two threads are never covered with Teflon tape

- Do not use pipe dope on any threads where Teflon tape is noted below

- Insert the red heat-trap fitting (arrow up) into the tank hot-water outlet

- Wrap Teflon tape on the thread of the galvanized 3/4" water-outlet pipe

- Screw a dialectric union on the 3/4" galvanized hot-water outlet pipe

- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of each male:male brass nipple

- Screw the brass male:male nipple on the female:female dialectric union

- Screw a new one-way check-valve onto this vertical hot-water outlet pipe

- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of another male:male brass nipple

- Screw this male:male nipple into the new ball-valve shutoff

- Screw the copper flex pipe onto the hot-water inlet brass nipples

- Bend the copper flex pipe into an S shape to further inhibit heat loss TURN ON THE WATER SUPPLY:

- Open all the hot-water faucets in the house to bleed out air

- Open the main cold-water input to the house

- Open the new ball-valve cold-water input to the hot-water heater

- Check for leaks as the tank fills

- Place a pan or bowl at the T&P overflow tube & test the T&P valve ATTACH THE NATURAL GAS INLET:

- Always connect the natural gas line as the very last step in this process

- Set the thermostat to the off position

- Coat male natural gas line threads with stick pipe dope (never Teflon tape)

- Ensure the last two threads are not covered with any pipe dope

- Connect the new natural gas flex pipe with shutoff valve to the thermostat

- Turn on natural gas at the main switch

- Turn on natural gas at the local inlet to the water heater

- Test for leaks by toothbrushing a solution of dish detergent and water

- Read and carefully follow the manufacturer's lighting instructions INSULATION:

- Wrap additional insulation around your hot-water heater, if desired

- Wrap insulation around your hot-water outlet pipe, if desired DISPOSAL:

- Call the local garbage or recycling to haul away the old water heater YEARLY MAINTENANCE:

- Place a pan or bowl at the T&P overflow tube & test the T&P valve

- Shut the natural gas flow valve to your water heater

- Close the cold-water intake at the top of the water heater

- Open at least one hot-water faucet on any level above the water heater

- Connect a garden hose to your hot water heater drain valve

- Open water heater drain valve & empty where hot water won't damage things

- Shut the drain valve when that water runs clear (approx 10 gallons)

- Remove and inspect sacrificial anode (replace if corroded badly)

- Leave the hot water faucet(s) open

- Open the cold-water valve intake to the water heater

- Run hot-water faucets for at least 10 second (or until sputtering stops)

- Turn the natural gas back on and ensure flame ignites in the burner

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

the nipples on the top of your new heater should already be dielectric, so adding a dielectric at the end of your water pipes would only protect the copper flex.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message

Could have saved a bundle on those items from a real plumbing supply. Only difference, they usually have a 15% restocking charges for returns.

.

Copper and brass are compatible. Brass is made with copper as an ingredient.

Don't need both. Careful putting an S bend as there is a minimum radius for them.

Won't really help much with todays's well insulated heaters.

If you have copper/steel you need them.

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message

No need to turn both off if the valves work, but can't hurt.

One low valve will drain off the pressure in seconds.

Turn the gas off the night before. Alternately, turnt he gas off, run the hot water to dilute what is in there a bit, then drain. Easier than sitting around two hours for a very little temperature loss. 40 gallon in an insulated thank is quite a bit of mass.

It won't drain unless you allow air to get in. Disconnect the top lines, then drain.

In your parts list I did not see anything for the vent hood that will be 5" shorter. Can you just cut the existing flue pipe?

Why? I didn't see any gas fittings on the parts list. If the gas is int he same location, just greak the union and put the pip below it into the new unit, then reconnect.

I'd leave them closed all along the way, save for one. No need to drain the entire system and makes purgin air easier later.

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

Now we know why good old Bill travels...............

Reply to
cavedweller

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:07:56 -0700, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:

If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings. My guess is special tape/dope for NG is just bullshit to sell expensive sealers, but do what you prefer with that. I use the same teflon tape for gas and water. As you've noted keep it off the first couple threads so it can't get in the pipe flow. I always look end-on to ensure that. Once inserted for tightening it can't move forward. Unless it's the exact same tank, you will have to use different length nipples. Until the new tank is in place, you are guessing. If you aren't handy with plumbing, get somebody who is to help. If you do it alone, do it when parts are available. You may find some of the old pipes/fittings scaled up and need replacing. Same with stop valves. This is the time to replace old questionable stuff. Since I don't cut my own pipes any more, when I do a job like this I make sure I have plenty of different sized nipples available. They are pretty cheap, and I don't have to go back to the store. The biggest "art" in working with steel pipe is feeling when you should stop turning, or go for another turn on a fitting that requires alignment. How hard you crank down a series of fittings can add or subtract inches to a run of piping. When working with some tight fittings, ie those connected by close nipples, a pair of 14" channel-locks can take a bite on an opposing fitting that a fatter pipe wrench can't. They are expensive but come in handy for many, many uses, even removing car oil filters. Take your time, think as you go, be especially careful with gas. Good luck. And let us know how it worked out.

--Vic

Reply to
Vic Smith

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