Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater

Correct. The heater may be okay but you have a leaking pipe. Improbable, but possible.

Seven years can be about right for an economy model in harsh water conditions. If the capacity has been adequate, replace it with the same. A larger capacity model does not last longer and may introduce connection issues (the pipes are in the wrong place).

For a traditional male with the right tools, it's a DIY. For wimps, metros, the aged, the infirm, those too busy, or for those who know the names of more than about six colors, it's a pro job.

Water heaters are commodity items. The same model is the same model. Installation is non-tricky - it's hard to believe even the fools selected by HD could screw it up. After removing the old heater, you set the new one in place and connect three pipes. You're done.

Too late, now. How often to drain (if ever) depends on the quality of your water. Study on this later.

Several. You'll need at least three (kitchen, bath, and laundry). This usually means running new electrical service to hard-to-reach places.

If you can live without hot water until your husband returns:

Drain the hot water heater:

  1. Turn off the water supply valve to the water heater. There are two pipes attached to the top, close the valve that is found on one of the pipes.
  2. Turn the heater's gas valve to OFF
  3. Hook up a water hose to the outlet found near the bottom of the water heater, put the other end of the garden hose outside.
  4. Turn the valve that's built into to the place on the water heater where you hooked up the hose.
  5. Open any hot-water faucet (this allows air to enter the tank).
Reply to
HeyBub
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It applies equally to electric and gas heaters.

O.P. Don't panic over a small leak. Chances are it will survive till he gets back just fine.

Bob

Reply to
Bob F

It's in a concrete-floored garage on a wooden pedestal so there's not much by way of water damage that can occur if the leak were to exascerbate in the next few days.

I've since given up on tankless for the retrofit costs. The labor at Home Depot seems to be $309 to hook up the new hot water heater and haul away the old one; plus $55 for earthquake straps; plus $50 for permits; plus taxes of roughly 9% on the parts and service.

Here are the comparisons I can generate so far, based on what Home Depot says at their Bronx New York Water Heater Servicing Center.

The prices below are installed but sans earthquake straps, permits, & taxes. Note that the Home Depot water heater servicing center had no figures for the BTUs (they said they weren't important). They mostly pushed warranty but I did my comparison by cost per First Hour Rating.

Home Depot Water Heater Servicing Center (877-467-0542) by price (installed), SKU, FHR, EF, BTU, volume, and warranty: $608 SG40T12AVH/182-755 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year) $658 SG50T12AVH/183-717 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year) $677 SG40T12AVH/182-786 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 9-yr(self cleaning) $718 SG50T12AVH/184-076 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 9-yr(self cleaning) $728 SG40T12AVH/182-953 68galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 12-yr(self cleaning) $783 SG50T12AVH/185-191 83galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 12-yr(self cleaning)

Here are the best numbers I could find by going to the local Home Depot. Notice the only way to get the all-important First Hour Rating was to open each and every box which the floorperson balked at so I don't know that or the Energy Factor.

Here is what was at the store by price, UPC, FHR, ER, BTU, volume, & warranty: $280, 514017, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 3yr $290, 509501, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 36K, 40gal, 6yr $350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr $350, 431048, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 6yr $360, 494272, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 6yr $370, 551821, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 9yr $380, 569840, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 6yr $410, 431055, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 9yr $420, 518411, ??gal FHR, .59EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr $420, 494302, 68gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 6yr $440, 518435, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 12yr

Do any of these choices seem most reasonable to replace my existing 65 gallon First Hour Rating, ??EF, 40 gallon, 35,000 BTU 50" tall by 18" diameter gas-fired shelf-mounted earthquake-strapped hot water heater?

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

Hi Nexus, I took your lead and went to the Home Depot myself. The guy there was very helpful; he said don't buy there.

He said write down the prices and the models and choose one. Then, call the 800-HOME-DEPOT number to buy.

The installation is $309 & it changes the warranty period in strange ways.

BTW, according to Consumer Reports, the MOST IMPORTANT figure, the "First Hour Rating" (FHR) was MISSING at Home Depot. So was the second most important buying figure, the efficiency rating (EF).

This is disapointing. Home Depot talked about warranty and price and gallonage but skipped the important criteria (according to my quick ressearch today). So, I'm trying to put it together now so we can comparison shop.

You had to open each and every box to get that information right off the unit - and the orange-vested guy didn't want me to do that so may I ask WHERE I'm supposed to get the critical numbers missing below in order to do a proper home hot water heater installation comparison decision?

Here's what they had (price, UPC, FHR, EF, BTU, gal, Warranty): $280, 514017, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 3yr $290, 509501, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 36K, 40gal, 6yr $350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr $350, 431048, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 6yr $360, 494272, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 6yr $370, 551821, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 9yr $380, 569840, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 6yr $410, 431055, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 9yr $420, 518411, ??gal FHR, .59EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr $420, 494302, 68gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 6yr $440, 518435, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr

Do you know where I can get the FHR and EF ratings for the Home Depot water heaters currently on sale? (I'll call the 800 number after this message.)

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

I think the ones HD sells are made by GE, try their web site.

Also since you have gas, make sure you buy a unit the same height or shorter than your existing unit, unless you have a flue that you are certain you can shorten safely (that is, maintaining a reasonable slope where it runs horizontally if anywhere) don't want to install the new heater and then find you have to rip it out because it's backdrafting!

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

It would be nice if there were freeware to do all these calculations for us! (I'll ask the wonderful folks on the freeware newsgroup if they have any "special" cost-per-FHR calculators other than standard calculators).

Here is what the choices seem to be by cost per FHR (which seems like the only reasonable comparison).

Home Depot Water Heater Servicing Center (877-467-0542) by cost per FHR given the price (installed), price for the heater, SKU, FHR, EF, BTU, volume, and warranty:

$4.15 $608 $299 182-755 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year) $4.36 $658 $349 183-717 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year) $5.11 $677 $368 182-786 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 9-yr(self cleaning) $5.11 $718 $409 184-076 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 9-yr(self cleaning) $6.16 $728 $419 182-953 68galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 12-yr(self cleaning) $4.51 $783 $374 185-191 83galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 12-yr(self cleaning)

Given the cost per FHR for the Home Depot hot water heaters above, it seems like the best bet, economically and maintenance wise, is the $5.11 per first hour rating 72-gallon FHR 40-gallon $368 dollar ($677 + $55 earthquake straps + $50 permit fee + ~$50 local taxes) GE SG40T12AVH/182-786 hot water heater.

Do you agree? That is, does this cost per FHR comparison seem logical to you?

It would be nice if there were freeware to do these calculations for us so I'm including the freeware team on this (they helped me years ago with a freeware garage-door torsion-spring calculator which was utterly fantastic

- maybe they have similar freeware calculators for home water heater replacement comparisons!).

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

Hi Nate, Thanks for asking. I appreciate the help. Since the hot water heater is in a garage, there is a foot and a half "bench" it's sitting on, then the 50 inches of hot water heater, then at least a few feet of vertical pipe to get near the cieling which is way up there.

So, I would guess they can cut off 8 or 9 inches and the vertical three-inch wide pipe would still be a few feet vertically.

I'm a bit more worried about the hot-water pipes as the S-shaped coiled pipes are only about a foot long but if we take 9 inches out of that, it leaves them only being about 3 inches long which doesn't seem like enough for an "S" dont'cha think?

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the advice. I'm making progress in the past few hours, learning more than I ever knew about my hot water heater!

A call to the Home Depot Water Heater Servicing Center in 'da Bronx (877-467-0542) uncovered the following choices by price installed (sans about $55 for earthquake straps & another $50 for a local permit, if needed) by SKU, FHR, EF, Gal, BTUs, & warranty:

$608 SG40T12AVH/182-755 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year) $658 SG50T12AVH/183-717 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year) $677 SG40T12AVH/182-786 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 9-yr(self cleaning) $718 SG50T12AVH/184-076 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 9-yr(self cleaning) $728 SG40T12AVH/182-953 68galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 12-yr(self cleaning) $783 SG50T12AVH/185-191 83galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 12-yr(self cleaning)

Keeping in mind my existing (leaking) 65 gallon First Hour Rated 40 gallon

35,000 BTU gas-fired hot water heater is roughly equivalent to the first one (i.e., least expensive) on the list, it looks like I can't go too far wrong with any of these.

Do my assumptions (focusing on the cost per FHR) make sense moving forward?

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

Hi Nate,

I should note the new hot water heaters are taller (about 58 and 59 inches versus 50 inches for the existing water heater) and wider (about 19.75 to

21.75 inches in diameter as opposed to about 18 inches for the existing hot water heater).

The guy on the phone said it wouldn't be a problem. There is about an inch of space between the top of the existing 50" tall water heater and the

3-inch or so wide vertical vent pipe with a hat on top to gather in the fumes (I guess).

The hot water coiled pipes are about a foot long currently and bent like a U shape.

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

as long as you have the space...

that gap is normal, and you say "vertical" making me think that you could just cut some off and still be OK, yes?

you mean more like an "S" laying on its side? That's good. those bends act like a heat trap, and most installers don't bother to put them in.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Hi Nate, Yes, I was referring to the corrugated flexible copper pipes connected to the rigid galvanized steel pipes coming out of the wall near the garage ceiling.

I guess they can cut the galvanized pipes because they are at least 18 inches or so vertical.

But I don't know if Home Depot includes cutting the galvanized pipes in the cost. Should I call them back and order a shorter (50 inch vs 58 inch) hot water heater so as to preserve the S coil without having to cut the galvanized steel water pipes?

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

Does anyone know if these guys "bargain"?

That is, if I call the Sears Kenmore Water Heater Center 1-800-877-6420, and give them the Home Depot price - would they modify their prices in the call? Does that happen?

I'd try it but when I thought about it today, the Kenmore folks were closed.

So, I figured I'd ask if it helps to "bargain" with the online folks? Anyone know if they give "instant discounts"?

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

that's fine, no worries there then.

I wouldn't worry about that at all. you can just take it out of the copper hard lines if you have to. (I'm assuming that you're referring to corrugated flexible copper connectors above.)

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

It's a useful tool but not the whole story, especially in what I gather will be a low usage situation. That would steer me to a small capacity heater and one with the very best insulation I could find. A longer warranty is good provided you're not paying an unreasonable premium for it.

In a low usage situation I would try and establish the R-values of the insulation in each product before making a final decision.

Also take into account the "quality" of your local water. If harsh, and you want a long life, consider a heater with a stainless steel tank (although there's a significant price premium).

Reply to
Malcolm Hoar

In article , Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote: [ ... ]

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The two above should equal or exceed the FHR of your existing heater. That's mainly a function of BTUs, so the second of the two above will be slightly better; of course, it'll burn a bit more gas. If that's a concern, go with the first.

Gary

Reply to
Gary Heston

Nope.

Susan

Reply to
Susan Bugher

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:32:43 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote: Hi Nate and others, I appreciate the help. One thing that confuses me to no end is this EFFICIENCY thing.

If both a 50 gallon and 40 gallon water heater has the same 59 percent efficiency factor ... do they cost the SAME to heat?

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more even if it's the same efficiency?

The reason I ask is I assumed they cost the same to operate but someone said the smaller water heater will cost less to operate even if the efficiency factor is the same.

Can someone who understands this clarify if a larger heater truly costs more to operate than a smaller volume heater even if the efficiency factor is the same?

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

Hi James, I don't wish to argue and I certainly appreciate any help but I think that's bad advice based on what I read.

For example, look here:

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Where it says: Although many consumers make water heater purchase decisions based only on the size of the storage tank, the first-hour rating (FHR), provided on the Energy Guide label, is actually more important. The FHR is a measure of how much hot water the heater will deliver during a busy hour. The FHR is required by law to appear on the unit's Energy Guide label. Therefore, before you buy a water heater, estimate your household's peak-hour demand and look for a unit with an FHR in that range. And beware that a larger tank doesn't necessarily mean a higher FHR.

The point is that the volume of the water heater is, apparently, meaningless from a standpoint of delivering enough hot water to meet our needs. The volume is merely (apparently) a starting point - just like the warranty is as meaningless as the volume.

So, it seems, based on my research, that to buy by volume and warranty are exactly what the manufacturers want you to do to keep you as far away from meaningful critera as possible.

What's really important, it seems, is the FHR and the EF. The only thing I'm really confused about is whether two equal efficiency (to simplify the argument) hot water heaters of two different sizes cost the same or different amounts.

Do you know?

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

I'm still looking up ways to make a smart decision. One thing I've noticed is that the efficiency factors I've been quoted from Home Depot stink (basically 58 to 59 percent).

I called PG&E and they pointed me to a $30 rebate but only for residential gas water heaters of an EF of 62% or greater.

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Does anyone know where to find a 40gallon or 50gallon hot water heater with that efficiency rating at a major chain (sears or home depot or ???).
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Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

I wouldn't bother. If the installers can't deal with cutting your water pipes shorter, you shouldn't let them install your heater (you have galvanized water lines? how old is this house, anyway? Mine was built in '48 and has copper.)

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

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