Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater

Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate printed there can be compared on different models.

Reply to
Rick Blaine
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Donna:

Get a heater with the same gallons as you currently have, and as high an efficiency rating as possible, go for at least a 5-year warranty. Get a unit that is exactly the same outside dimensions so the piping does not have to be changed and find a reasonably handy neighbor to put the new tank in. It should take less than 30 minutes to do the entire switch-out if the old and new tanks are the exact same size. Compare prices on a cost per year of warranty coverage, I have seen a lot of heaters that go bad within a year or so of the expiration of the warranty, so cost per year of coverage is a good comparison criteria. If you have the room, adding a fibre-glass water heater cover over the new tank will improve the heat loss and thus raise the efficiency. Don't obcess(SP?) about this, it isn't worth the time and effort.

H. R.(Bob) Hofmann

Reply to
hrhofmann

Are you sure?

Isn't the Energy Factor a more pure number than the annual costs? That is, the energy costs depend, of course, on the price of energy and volume of water assumed while the Energy Factor should be independent of those two numbers.

So, it seems to me the EF already takes into account the insulation (and whatever other factors matter).

Doesn't it?

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

EF allows you to compare different heaters. It takes into account insulation and other factors. Details here:

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Reply to
Rick Blaine

For the record, this reference, pointed to me by someone on this thread, is FANTASTIC for helping a consumer figure out which gas water heater to buy!

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The actual document for a gas water heater is
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$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf I'm reading it now to learn more. A lot of what people said is right but a lot is wrong. It's so hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

But I'm trying! Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

Yes

Yes.

Do you care? Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you buy?

Reply to
Rick Blaine

Nobody mentioned the payback calculation yet. I'm trying to run the calculations in the invaluable Dec. 2007 document

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$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf Given current PG&E cost per therm in my area
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between $1.21 to $1.44 per therm
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For those calculations, does an average cost per therm in my area of $1.33 seem reasonable to you?

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

Hi Rick, I don't wish to argue ... just to understand ... so please bear with me.

I've said a lot that is wrong (e.g., I called the EF an "efficiency" factor) and at first I was choosing by size and warranty (which is about as opposite of the true selection process as is possible) ... so I'm learning from all you guys and trying to truly understand how to properly select a real water heater out of the real selections and choices truly available today in my area.

It seems like I'm not the only one confused as some people said to buy a water heater by CAPACITY (which seems nearly meaningless except for overall mechanical size reasons) instead of by FHR, for example.

The web site you recommended was better for FHR than those I tried:

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As that web site CLEARLY said the FHR is the most important VOLUME number. "To properly size a storage water heater ... use the water heater's first hour rating (FHR). The first hour rating is the amount of hot water in gallons the heater can supply per hour (starting with a tank full of hot water). It depends on the tank capacity, source of heat (burner or element), and the size of the burner or element."

So, I now know that the volume (e.g., 40 gallon or 50 gallon is a nearly meaningless number when the actual FHR is known).

But, I'm still confused about the EF.

That same web site:

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Says "the energy factor (EF) indicates a water heater's overall energy efficiency based on the amount of hot water produced per unit of fuel consumed over a typical day. This includes ... how efficiently the heat from the energy source is transferred to the water ... the percentage of heat loss per hour from the stored water compared to the heat content of the water ... [and] the loss of heat as the water circulates through a water heater tank, and/or inlet and outlet pipes."

So, if I understand it correctly, all we need is the EF and the FHR and the actual size (e.g., 40 gallons, 50 gallons, or 60 gallons) is meaningless from the standpoint of how much hot water it delivers or how much it costs to operate.

This seems so counterintuitive that no wonder a lot of people are confused, even me. But then, like countersteering on a bicycle, sometimes you do turn left to go right.

At the moment, it seems that the actual capacity of the tank is a nearly meaningless number (except for dimensional reasons) - as is the warranty - based on that web page (since both the FHR and ER already take into account the tanks' size).

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

I thought MORE about what you wrote and you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

The insulation was suggested by someone else (not me). I agree with you, the thickness of the insulation, in and of itself, is as meaningless as the volume of the tank, in and of itself.

What seems meaningful isn't the warranty. It's not the volume of the tank. It's not the thickness of the insulation. It's not even the total energy costs (since they make assumptions which might not be true).

What seems meaningful is the ER and the FHR which take into account ALL those factors (and more).

So my conclusion (open for discussion) is that what matters is:

- Get the desired FHR needed (e.g., 65 to 75 gallons is fine for me

- Get the desired ER (I wish I could find a .62 instead of .59 ERs)

- Get the right PHYSICAL SIZE (e.g., a 40-gallon tank is 50 inches tall)

Some other factors which _might_ be interesting are:

- Your article said try to get an ELECTRONIC flame igniter

- The Home Depot guy tried to sell me on the maintenance-free ones (He said they had a fan that stirred up the sediment)

- Some folks recommended "better" valves for cleaning out the sediment

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

Look at your utility bill, it should say exactly what the cost per therm is, they may call it CCF. That number sounds a little high, but then it varies by area and the cost has multiplied by several times in the last 10-15 years. I pay around $1.15 per therm, I still remember when it was closer to

33 cents.
Reply to
James Sweet

just to muddy the water a little more.............

the hotter you keep the water the greater the energy loss. often people try to compensate for a too small tank by keeping water very hot.

this has 2 bad effects, greater standby losses, so operating costs are higher.

plus the higher temperature is harder on the tank, leading to a shorter overall life.

now put a llarger tank in such a situation and the operating costs can actually be less for a larger tank if you turn down its temperature

Reply to
hallerb

I don't want to burst anyone's bubble but realize that it's a ONE TIME lifetime warranty that Home Depot offers! That's fine as long as you realize it won't be the last water heater you'll ever replace.

For example, say that, in five years, the first water heater goes kaput. They will come out and replace it (if they installed it - otherwise you have to bring it to them - soaking wet in the back seat of your Lexus) ... but ... that's it!

Your lifetime is up. They will NOT replace the second water heater if it goes out, say, in another five years.

This isn't to say that the first water heater didn't have a lifetime warranty; it's just to remonstrate that the lifetimes is a one-shot deal.

Just to clarify, Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

It depends on your usage. EF assumes typical usage patterns, whatever that is.

If your usage is above typical, go for the better burner. If your usage is below typical, go for the better insulation.

EF is not the holy grail, unless you actually know for a fact that your usage patterns mirror those assumed in the EF calculation.

Reply to
Malcolm Hoar

Donna,

I just attach a short section of garden hose and then open the bottom drain for a minute or so every few months to keep the sediment to a minimum in my gas HWH tank. I am fortunate enough to have a floor drain there in my basement so this is fairly easy to do.

Also, if you can find a tank with the exact same dimension (Height x Width) and that has the gas inlet, exhaust flue, cold water inlet, and hot water outlet all located in exactly the same position/heights (or as near as possible), then it makes the installation much simpler.

I also agree with the suggestion of installing the fiberglass "blanket" insulation regardless of which model you choose to make it as efficient as possible.

Good luck!

Bob

"D>

Reply to
Bob Shuman

BTW, this was meant for the newbie (like I am) who researches their water heater, not Nexus (who already knows his stuff).

The hope is that we pump enough real-world useful information into this thread so that the archives are available to us and others in the future.

Otherwise, the next person will be duped into buying a water heater by tank size and warranty and sedimention patents - which is just what the manufacturers want you to do.

It seems they don't want you concentrating on the "real" items that matter, which seem more and more to boil down to the calculations inherent in the FHR and ER numbers which I'm struggling through now.

What it seems to boil down to, for me, is to buy by:

- FHR (65 to 75 gallons in an hour seem appropriate for me)

- ER (I'd really like to get a 0.62 or better but have NOT found any yet)

- PRICE (I have plenty of money but I don't want to waste it needlessly)

- SERVICE (I want to trust that the plumber does the job well)

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

Depends on how you look at it. The tank size is a basic number. It won't change, the tank is what it is. The FHR is a number calculated with certain assumptions. It may be that these assumptions are not applicable to you, but since most consumer heaters are rated for the real world, FHR is meaningful to most people. By the same token however, heaters of different tank sizes are sold in the real world too, and no one is going to push say a 200 gal heater for home use; so as I had mentioned earlier, using just the tank and burner sizes (and ER to a lesser extent, since they aren't that different unless you pay a heck of a lot more) is sufficient.

Reply to
Nexus7

If you won't listen to your husband about waiting, why would you pay any attention to us?

Reply to
beecrofter

Hi Nexus, I understand your point and it is sound advice to buy "roughly" by tank and burner size and ER. For me, that correlates to FHR and ER.

This seemingly well thought out discussion I found in my water heater research seems to have similarly practical advice (e.g., it says all water heaters of similar size & type are basically equal)

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Some salient points from that article are:

- Four manufacturers make almost all the water heaters

- Almost nobody flushes their tanks periodically

- Average lifespan is 13 years

- Virtually all water heaters perform similarly

- It's easy to install (2 to 4 hours in toto)

I wish someone had pointed me to that article

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as the FIRST one I read instead of all the ones touting the patented sedimentation-prevention system, the R-factor of the insulation, the years of warranty (worst of all meaningless numbers)!

The good news is that, in the future, if YOUR water heater needs replacement, you'll read this thread and know that the FIRST article I recommend, one who went through the hoops for a day, is this one!

Good luck everyone! Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

True but ... you can CALCUATE your personal situation (I'm doing it now).

READ THIS document (it's a MUST HAVE for water-heater calculations)!

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nch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf

You'll also need your current costs per therm, e.g., read this (for me):

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these prices of approx $1.33/therm for gas-fired residential water heaters in the local area:
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Armed with those two documents and the FHR & EF ratings for your prospective water heaters, you can do all the calculations you need to apply to your specific situation.

I just wish there were a freeware water-heater calculator out there to make this easier on all of us!

Donna Note that it might not matter much as all water heaters are basically the same according to this article

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Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

I called this morning and the town said I need a PLUMBING permit because it's a gas heater. I forgot to ask the price but the installer will handle that for me (and charge me).

I just hope there isn't the 8.5% sales tax charged on top of the permit costs!

As Will Rogers said, thank God we don't get as much government as we pay for!

Donna

Reply to
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coo

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