Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater

[hallerb]

EPA numbers are bogus the worst were on vehicles like PRIUS.

tests always favor the manufacturer..........

[Vic Smith]

Might be they don't account for your driving style. Might be something else - not interested enough to look into it, but I'm sure they lab test versus "real world." Think you said you had an Impala, and the 3.1 engine coupled with the GM lockup trans is an efficient combo. I consistently get 30-31 mpg highway with mine ('97 Lumina) over a long stretch of varied terrain. Measured by actual gas pumped into the tank over many thousands of miles. My '88 Celebrity with the 2.8 did about 28 mpg, but always had a heavier passenger load.

--Vic

[Edwin Pawlowski]

The news 2008 figures take real life into consideration and are much closer to reality. Previous figures were ideal lab conditions.

[Only Just]

It all points down to the fact that average Joe citizen can't tell the difference unless he can find out exactly how they take all these measurements (The method used and exactly what figures) that each company used and how (If they did) manipulated those figures to get the result as they publish. The main thing that the Government is interested in is a standard across the relevant industry so everyone can make a comparison. Justy.

[trader4]

The tests are performed by independent labs to the EPA test procedures and standards. It's not up to the maufacturers to decide how to test, nor can they manipulate the results for the cars. Same thing for the water heaters.

[hallerb]

-

no the manufactuers knowing the test procedures tweak the product to look as good as possible

[N8N]

It is HEAVILY dependent on driving style. In daily commuting (DC traffic, lots of accelerating/slowing down) I get horrible mileage but I too was getting about 30 MPG over the holidays, driving back and forth to visit my parents (90% highway) same drivetrain as you, '05 Impala, 3.1/auto.

nate

[Vic Smith]

Think you're the Nate from long ago r.a.d. days. As I recall you were a Chrysler fan. What caused you to go to the dark side? (-:

--Vic

[N8N]

I still post there occasionally, but a lot of the intelligent regulars have left and a lot of idiots and trolls have moved in :( The Impala is a company provided vehicle, I don't have any MoPars at the moment as my old Dart was a complete beater and not worth restoring, and prices of good ones are rising. I do have a Porsche 944 that I bought as a daily beater before I got a job with a company car, and my "real" car is a '55 Studebaker - just as bulletproof as a MoPar, but apparently not as collectible yet, so prices are still reasonable. Of course, it's still somewhat apart after I lost my mind after a simple gasket replacement turned into a drivetrain replacement...

nate

[trader4]

Yes, some of that can certainly be going on. But trying to change the design of the product slightly to come out better in the standard EPA test is a lot different than claiming the tests themselves are not uniform because the manufacturer gets to decide the test method, how the test is done, etc, and then manipulates the results they publish.

[hallerb]

well everyone knew the old tests werent valid yet it took many years to get them changed

[dpb]

[e-mail] wrote: ...

Which old tests weren't valid, specifically? And why?

That they weren't necessarily representative of average driving doesn't mean they were "invalid tests"; it simply means they were of value only as comparative to each other for those circumstances. Assuming you're talking of the previous EPA Standard tests, that's no different than the current tests--only the test conditions have changed, nothing about the administration or control of the test data, etc.

[jakdedert]

The wage to the technician is just a starting point, since few are independent contractors. Most work for larger concerns who also must pay ancillary personnel.

A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of the old water heater. In some areas of this country, that can be substantial. In others...well, I've seen a lot of old water heaters littering the countryside.

Also, access is a serious issue in many structures; and this applies equally to both removal and installation. I could easily replace the unit in my basement; but I once had a shop where the heater was mounted in the attic. That one would have required a couple of guys for a couple of hours to replace--involving ropes & pulleys, not to mention a significant amount of risk--in addition to the normal procedures.

jak

[hallerb]

like a way

scrap steel has value everywhere, minimial but still a little money. so you haul the junk heater and get candy bar money. around here trash takes them but they often get picked up before that

[James Sweet]

I understand a business has to make money, but I don't, I have a fulltime job, I do this stuff as a favor for friends, hence the substantially lower price.

Cost? I get money for the old units at the recycler, it's an insignificant amount, but probably enough to cover the fuel spent getting it there.

[jakdedert]

I understand that, in your case. The thread had to do with commercial installers. If we all had a 'buddy named James' there would be no need for businesses which do this day in/out. In fact, that's the way most things were done, 'back when', but it's not the norm anymore.

That's because you have access to the recycler, know where it is, and have a vehicle suitable to transport...also the time. I know it's trivial to many--but monumental to others. I'd be hard-pressed to get a

50 gallon water heater in my old Corolla, although it could be done (it's a station wagon). I'd want to put in several layers of padding and some waterproofing. Many would not want to do so in their late model Whizzmobiles.

Like I said, I've seen a lot of discarded water heaters....

jak

[hallerb]

Funny the title of this discussion was quick basic advice and now has over 160 posts:)

yep er quick and basic:) Lots of useful info!!

[Lou]

Considering that the EPA's National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory is located in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and that Ann Arbor is about 840 feet above sea level, and that the EPA conducts its own tests at this facility, I think your claim that the mileage figures are based on sea level conditions is suspect.

Considering that starting in 2008 supplementary tests are conducted to estimate the effects of high speed (up to 80 mph), use of air conditioning, and cold temperatures (down to 20 degrees F), the claim that current figures represent ideal conditions also seem somewhat out of sync with the facts.

[Lou]

According to the EPA's fuel economy guide for 2008, the Prius is rated at

48/45 for city/highway. The 2008 model year isn't very far advanced and there's only 23 2008 models listed in the shared fuel economy estimates, but those drivers claim actual mileage of 35 to 56 mpg, with an average of 43.5, I'd say the estimates aren't that bad. The best driver claims an average of 56.2 mpg for 38% stop and go and 62% highway driving - that car is driven in Arizona. The worst driver claims a mere 35.1 for a car driven in California - no percentages for city/highway are given.

[Lou]

Anyone with access to the web can look up how the tests are done. The testing protocols are federally mandated, everyone must use the same test,

10%-15% of the tests are confirmed by the EPA, and the only mileage figures the manufacturers can advertise are the ones coming out of the tests. Vehicles weighing over 8500 pounds (vehicle, all fluids, maximum carrying capacity) are exempt from testing.