question about hail

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Hi,
I had some hail recently, which dented the ridge cap on the roof and removed some gravel from the shingles. I do not have any leaks. I looked in the attic and saw one spot where the 1x6's had been broken. One place had a splintered crack, and another had 12" piece about 1-2" wide knocked out, and you could see some black fabric [I assume the roofing felt] pushing through, but upon close inspection during a rain storm, there was no dripping. I went on top of the roof and looked in that area, and there was no hole in the shingles.
What could have caused that? Can the hail break the 1x6's and not remove the shingle? Or was that damage done by the roofer?
I was also wondering if it was ok to put dimensional shingles on top of 3 tab shingles without a rip off and replacing felt.
Thanks,
itchy
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wrote:

Were you present when the hail hit?
We get hail of the tiny "ouch that hurts" variety but nothing like the golf or base or soft or bowling-ball sized that I've heard about.
Do you think that you got hail that was big enough to break a 1 x 6?
You asked "...or was that damage done by the roofer?". Did you have a roofer doing work recently? What was (s)he doing?
In any case, I would make sure the shingles were supportted from underneath. I wouldn't want shingles simple bridging a gap in the roof sheathing. I think that that would be just asking for trouble, especially for anyone walking on the roof.
One little mis-step could lead to one big mis-step.
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On Mon, 23 May 2011 11:37:34 -0700, DerbyDad03 wrote:

We got golfball-sized hail a couple of weeks ago - something I'd heard about but always kind of dismissed as being exaggeration.
I couldn't find any obvious damage to anything afterwards, though, so I suspect that the 1x6" damage that the OP has is unrelated and possibly due to their house settling or the frame warping due to seasonal changes.
cheers
Jules
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On 5/24/2011 8:22 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:

I can assure you that baseball and larger to the grapefruit size is well within the range of the possible...serious t-storm country will generate some mammoth stones in the general area on average of every couple of years or so. Out here (W KS) golfball-sized will occur somewhere in the area several times every year; it's just part of "normal" spring/early summer weather patterns. Although this year the bulk of the severe weather seems to have shifted to the SE; we're in the far SW corner and haven't yet had a single t-storm this year. We're in severe/extreme drought and just missed yet another good chance yesterday for any precipitation of any kind--we're to the point we'd even take the hail; it'll melt and there's no wheat of any consequence left and the corn isn't large enough to matter (what irrigated that has been planted; many haven't tried 'cuz would take so much water w/ no rain wouldn't pay) and there's no dryland corn or milo even been planted yet. We've had barely over an 1.5" since last August and it's even drier on west... :( Meanwhile, same ol' places keep getting drowned time after time. Brother's place in Joplin missed by a little less than a mile Sunday; niece's house flattened by large tree and one wall out plus all the glass but they're ok...haven't been able to get thru since yesterday AM on either land or cell lines to follow up.

Generally a good inspector/adjustor will see stuff the average homeowner won't. It also depends on how much hail actually falls of course--a few large stones won't leave a lot of damage even though they're big; cover the ground w/ them 6" deep or more and it's a whole different story.
Again, it's unlikely the break was hail alone if the material was sound to begin with; I'd still not rule it out entirely if there were existing flaws but the size OP indicated in the followup isn't mammoth so major structural damage is indeed unlikely. But, nothing says there wasn't one humongous stone amongst the others, either... :)
--
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On 5/24/2011 8:52 AM, dpb wrote: ...

There are a zillion images/stuff on the web; a useful reliable compendium of severe events for the not-faint-at-heart in looking at data is at
<http://explore.data.gov/Geography-and-Environment/Database-of-Tornado-Large-Hail-and-Damaging-Wind-R/8ga4-p9kg
--
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On 5/24/2011 8:52 AM, dpb wrote:

Reported yesterday of 4.25" in three locations all within roughly 100 mi of our location. Numerous of from inch to 2-3".
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I live in western NY where we get "normal" sized hail - tiny. I was in Ohio and saw a truck from Texas that was as dimpled as a golf ball. I asked the driver what happened and he said "Hail".
So, in places like West Kansas and wherever dpb lives - places where large hail is "just part of normal spring/early summer weather patterns" - are all the cars dented?
If not, why not?
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On 5/25/2011 12:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: ...

"dpb" is located in SW KS...

Not "all", no. In a location that gets a big 'un, there will certainly be a high number that are severely damaged, of course.
But, primarily, not all because those three locations yesterday covered an area of only a few square miles and much of it was in relatively sparsely populated (farm) country. The population centers out here are relatively small and so on an area basis the odds are pretty good that the really severe stuff won't be in an area that does have the high number of vehicles to get clobbered.
Secondly, there's a whole industry that moves around from storm area to the next and does repair. The new "paintless" repair process can do pretty remarkable job even on stuff that looks irreparable. Not car show smooth, but good enough it'll pass the general muster w/o being obvious. Most folks w/ newer vehicles will get them repaired; really old or work vehicles often will sport trophies and/or scars from several events occurred thru their lifetimes. Occasionally folks will take the "opportunity" to cash in and get a new vehicle and if damage on an old is very extensive or it's not a very new vehicle, it'll just go straight to auction or salvage. So the population of hailed-on vehicles gets turned over.
Dealers that get caught w/ a large inventory on a lot can suffer a lot, obviously. That'll happen probably once or twice a year in some location; often Wichita or Hutchinson or Salina being larger metro areas will have an instance.
We were caught in town a few years ago during the "big 'un" I described upthread at the college at a performance. We knew a serious t-storm was moving in from radio reports(1) (it was coming from the NE which is a generally ominous portent for really severe weather out here) so I parked the car (Mom's '97 LeSabre) against the west edge of the press box of the baseball stadium which was high and pretty well constructed. That kept the brunt of the wind-driven of it and saved broken glass but it wore some good-sized dents and did break one mirror support and a wiper arm. But, when they were done unless you'd known to look or knew just where to look against the light, it wasn't noticeable at all.
As noted, the dealerships in town had some serious clearance sales on both new and used vehicles afterwards on that occasion.
(1) Of course, if we had known just how bad it was going to be (and that they would lose power just about halfway thru the first act so show would be canceled anyway) we would have gone back home and put the car in the garage. Turns out the hail track of that storm traveled about 2 mi N of our place which is on S edge of town a few miles east. We only had some strong wind and a nice rain and from the looks of it by the leave shredding/pieces on trees and the corn in the morning a moderate amount of roughly pea-sized hail.
--
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It's all your fault!
My local forecast:
"Scattered thunderstorms during the morning becoming more widespread and possibly severe this afternoon.
Storms may produce large hail and strong winds.
High 82F. Winds SW at 10 to 20 mph. Chance of rain 80%."
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On 5/26/2011 8:05 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote: ...

Chuckles... :)

I'd take it...as noted the western portions of the High Plains are in severe to extreme drought. I just did the following in an e-mail w/ an aunt back in Wichita where it is only a little below their normals--since last August. These are totals from the airport monitoring station in town about 10 mi west of us except for some motes I've made comparing my notes for here at the house...
Aug 1.18" (16th - 1.01" ) We got ~1.30 on the 16th at the house Sep 0.07 Oct 0.15 Nov 0.43 Dec 0.01 Jan 0.01 Feb 0.00 Mar 0.25 (estimated; they have 4.81" on Mar 3 but that is snow depth if not total aberration; the calendar day shows sun for the day) Apr 0.60 We got the 0.20 and 0.70 on two Sun/Mon I mentioned May 0.11 Don't believe we had quite that much--just sprinkles
Yesterday's wind specs...
Wind Speed     35 mph (NNW)           Max Wind Speed     45 mph           Max Gust Speed     54 mph          
Lowest sustained wind speed from 00:00 AM until 8PM was 29 at 00:15 and 19:55 recordings w/ a short lull of about 28-30mph between 4-5AM; after 8PM it rapidly dropped to near calm finally as the low moved off east.
While somewhat extreme even for us we get such strong winds pretty much routinely ahead of and behind each front; generally first from the S then as the low progresses back from the N on the back edge. What we hope for is enough period of S/SE wind to bring up gulf moisture to be in place so when the front actually arrives it has some moisture to work with and hopefully set off some t-storms which is our general mechanism for rain as opposed to the general area-wide rains that are much more prevalent back there.
Unfortunately, this last year has produced almost nothing in the way of moisture events along the whole stretch from roughly the western third of NE/KS/OK/TX and on into eastern sections of NM/CO/NE panhandle w/ the exception that finally within the last couple of weeks there has been activity in NE CO spilling some over into NE KS/SW NE. But, that's remained well north of us in the SW corner.
<http://www.drought.unl.edu/dm/DM_highplains.htm <http://www.drought.unl.edu/dm/DM_west.htm
We're in that narrow band of "extreme" on the edge of "exceptional" in the SW corner of KS. While it shows extreme conditions on farther east in KS, one must remember that their averages are 2x or more those of the farther west and the indices are relative to averages for the areas. So, if we had had what they have had we could well be near normal while they're showing a world of hurt, comparatively.
Needless to say, farming ain't goin' too well for the dryland folks and even irrigated guys simply don't have the water it would take to really make a crop.
--
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On 5/25/2011 12:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: ...

In comparison...
When finished uni, first job was in Lynchburg, VA, then were in E TN (Oak Ridge) area for over 20 before returning to family farm.
While there were a few instances of serious weather in that time while there (a small tornado in Loudon County, TN killed a couple folks 'cuz nobody there could imagine such a thing and took little or no heed of warnings, primarily) and one serious hail event in Clinton, I was continually amazed at how benign the weather was.
Saw some of the most tremendous lightning shows ever and lots of SLCs (1), but rarely was there any t-storm that I would have called even moderate in severity, what more severe. Headlines were made if wind gusts reached 45 mph (while we're having sustained winds today of 30-45 mph and gusts 50+ since midnight last night not expected to abate until after 8PM) whereas we would think that would be pretty tame.
Of course, with all the trees and that there was so little heavy wind to keep things culled, the amount of damage done by those was inordinate to the severity. Here, the continual winds mean the utility lines have to be much more stout and well-maintained to prevent inordinate number of outages and the lack of moisture means there are trees only where they've been planted and watered around farmsteads or in towns (other than the stray cedars and wayward cottonwoods hither and yon but nothing like the forest and thick growth back there).
(1) Scary-looking clouds.
--
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DerbyDad03 wrote:
<SNIP previously quoted stuff>

Most of western NY occaisionally gets supercell thunderstorms intense enough to drop hail of pingpong ball to golfball size. Even if only once a century - that does happen.
Even the Philadelphia area has reports of hail of pingpong ball to golfball size in one or a few localities every several years.

--
- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

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DerbyDad03 wrote:

What type of house? Age of the house? Hail stones usually cause surface/cosmetic damages not structural. I believe what you see in the attic is not related to hail storm. I live in the fringe area of a known hail band. Insurance cos. spend millions seeding the cloud to prevent major hail storm every year. Living here for 40 years, I had one cracked skylight by hai; stone which insurance took care of.
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Tony Hwang:

It's a brick 67 rancher, not a steep pitch, with lots of surface area for hail to bounce off of. The suggestion that it might be the house settling, plus some hail pressure seems plausible. Cloud seeding? Maybe they can figure out some anti-tornado dust :).
itchy
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On 5/23/2011 1:13 PM, internaughtfull wrote:

I wouldn't say it would be impossible, but I think it highly unlikely you could actually have broken 1x6 (open?) sheathing by hail and not have gone through the roof at the same time. I'd vote that was more likely previous damage.
After such an extreme hail event (and apparent other structural damage as well) I'd not even consider a roof-over w/o a complete tearoff. Who knows what else you would be covering up and just asking for early failure by doing so.
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On 5/23/2011 1:49 PM, dpb wrote: ...

BTW, we're in one of those areas prone to large hail so I've certainly seen severe enough hail to cause the damage; just that if there is missing material there wouldn't have been support for the hailstone.
OTOH, if it is just a crack (and particularly if there were a know or other weakness in the area already), I can certainly see that the hailstone could make the break but rebound and not actually penetrate.
Again, I'd definitely _not_ do anything but a re-roof...what level of damage does the adjustor give?
--
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1/6 (open deck) roof.
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On 5/23/2011 2:25 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote: ...

Well, it's not totally clear it is open deck -- the indication of "losing some gravel" off the existing shingles makes one wonder. Of course, I've seen worse than somebody not filling in when replacing formerly wood shingles so can't rule it out. Lack of enough info to know for certain...
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wrote:

You refer to "the roofer". What was a roofer doing on the roof??? Did you recentlyhave it re-roofed? How manylayers of shingles are currently on the roof? Check with your local building / zoning depts to see if dimensional shingles are allowed for a reroof without removing the current layer (layers?).
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internaughtfull wrote the following:

That had to been some large and heavy hail to punch a hole in a 1x6 piece of wood. I could imagine some denting of an aluminum ridge vent from smaller hail. I would suspect that it was damage from some other source.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
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