Pellet stove

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JoeSixPack wrote:

you claimed it was rarely grown for oil. you were wrong.

as one replacement, yes. since you can make biodiesel and ethanol from the same bushel, plus animal feed, it's a very good source of fuel.
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Steve Spence
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Even if it costs $10 a gallon?
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JoeSixPack wrote:

Ehanol is cheaper than gasoline at today's prices...
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What's the price after you take off all the subsidies?
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JoeSixPack wrote:

What's the price of gasoline after you remove the subsidies?
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Steve Spence
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I'm sure you mean taxes. Remove them, and we're talking about 15-30% less, depending on where you live. That only increases the spread between petroleum and biofuels, so I don't see what you're getting at.
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JoeSixPack wrote:

No, I'm not talking about taxes that you see at the pump.
I'm talking about health subsidies, security subsidies, environmental subsidies, all those things that if the consumer paid for them at the pump instead of in general taxes on income and other sales taxes, would be indicated by $6 or more at the pump.
http://www.green-trust.org/securesupply/securesupply.htm
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Steve Spence
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Per mile, or per gallon?
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Goedjn wrote:

1 Gallon of Gasoline = 125,000 Btu 1 Gallon of Ethanol = 80,000 Btu
Find wholesaler pretax prices of each and do the math.
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Steve Spence
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Not in real terms, that is "without subsidies."
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JoeSixPack wrote:

Actually, at today's pump prices, both if one looks at production/wholesale costs. There's a penalty against ethanol at the retail market just now in that there's yet a small enough distribution channel that it gets priced more nearly at the equivalent gasoline level than is required.

Yes, in real terms, that being the actual economic system in which we operate.
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JoeSixPack wrote:

Ignoring petroleum subsidies again, eh?
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Steve Spence
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Petroleum prices are not subsidized, they are taxed. Exactly the opposite.
Subsidies make the prices LOWER.
Taxes make the price HIGHER.
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JoeSixPack wrote:

oh, so having our military in the middle east to keep supplies open is "free" then? How about the money spent combatting asthma, cancer, and poolution. That's all free as well? We pay those bills, and that's a subsidy.
You must have ignored this last time I gave it to you: http://www.green-trust.org/securesupply/securesupply.htm
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I observe that your favorite rhetorical technique is "Begging the Question".
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What the hell are you talking about? Where is the price of petroleum subsidized?
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Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote:

http://www.green-trust.org/securesupply/securesupply.htm
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JoeSixPack wrote:

Direct payments to grain producers are less than $0.25/bu for corn which is something on the order of 12-15% of current market price. But, one can't just make the blanket assumption that this is paid on every bushel produced since there are significant other considerations every producer must take into account in deciding how to run his particular operation under current Farm Policy and Tax Law, just as in any other industry.
There is a tax credit which goes to the ethanol producer which I don't know the exact magnitude of under current law. It's intended, of course, to stimulate the expansion of production and is nothing dissimilar to other economic incentives which have been codified for such things as wind generation and solar.
One of the last data points I have states "...the costs to produce ethanol from corn starch and the capital cost of dry mill ethanol plants have decreased. In 1978, ethanol was estimated to cost $2.47 per gallon to produce (in year 2000 dollars). By 1994 this price had dropped to $1.43 per gallon 12 and current fuel ethanol production costs are estimated by the authors to be about $0.88 per gallon for dry mill operations. The cost reductions may be traced to various factors. The production of ethanol has become less energy intensive due to new techniques in energy integration and the use of molecular sieves for ethanol dehydration. The amount of pure ethanol produced from a bushel of corn has increased from 2.5 gallons to more than 2.7 gallons."
http://www.ethanol-gec.org/information/briefing/16.pdf
I think it's clear that actual production costs are quite competitive w/ gasoline at or above the $1/gal mark.
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size=2>...<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; JoeSixPack wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;You do realize corn oil is available it the grocery store .....<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; So is olive, palm, sunflower, safflower, peanut, canola, fish, lard,<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; and<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; about a hundred others. What's your point?<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; you claimed it was rarely grown for oil. you were wrong.<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;Corn is a good crop because it's commonly grown, it can be pressed for<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;oil, and mashed for ethanol, plus the distillers grains are used for<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;animal feed, so it has many by products.<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Does that make it feasible as a replacement for petroleum fuel?<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; as one replacement, yes. since you can make biodiesel and ethanol from<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; the<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; same bushel, plus animal&nbsp; feed, it's a very good source of fuel.<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Even if it costs $10 a gallon?<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Ehanol is cheaper than gasoline at today's prices...<BR>&gt;&gt; <BR>&gt;&gt; What's the price after you take off all the subsidies?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Direct payments to grain producers are less than $0.25/bu for corn which<BR>&gt; is something on the order of 12-15% of current market price.&nbsp; But, one<BR>&gt; can't just make the blanket assumption that this is paid on every bushel<BR>&gt; produced since there are significant other considerations every producer<BR>&gt; must take into account in deciding how to run his particular operation<BR>&gt; under current Farm Policy and Tax Law, just as in any other industry.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Don't ignore all the indirect ones. Subsidies on fertilizers, pesticides and a phoney "loan" program that will never be repaid, amounts to a 50% subsidy paid to the US farmer on every bushel of grain.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV> <TABLE style="DIRECTION: ltr" width="100%" border=0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD><SPAN class=articleheadline style="DIRECTION: ltr"><FONT face="Arial Narrow"><STRONG>President Bush Challenges EU on Farm Subsidies</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></TD></TR> <TR> <TD vAlign=top><FONT size=2><FONT face="Arial Narrow"><SPAN class=byline>By VOA News</SPAN> <BR><SPAN class=datetime>04 July 2005</SPAN><BR></FONT></FONT></TD> <TD vAlign=top align=left><FONT face="Arial Narrow" size=2></FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><SPAN class=body> <P><FONT face="Arial Narrow" size=2>President Bush says the United States will drop subsidies to American farmers - if the European Union does the same in Europe. He told British television Sunday, ending those subsidies would allow African countries to compete better, reducing their need for international aid.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Arial Narrow">President Bush will attend he Group of Eight Summit this week, which will discuss aid to Africa. But farm subsidies are very popular in France and Germany, and the U.S. challenge is not thought likely to be accepted</FONT>.</FONT></P></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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JoeSixPack wrote:

US farm policy is a complex multi-headed hydra just as is US energy policy or any other area of national interest. The days of non-government interference are long gone for all.
We are currently (and have been for approximately 20 years) engaged in continuing international negotiations regarding US and world farm policies. It would be imo very short-sighted to US economic interests to not continue such negotiations but it would also be quite short-sighted to not ensure that the other nations make similar modifications to their policies. The problem so far has been that most of the trade agreements which have been signed have been kept by the US but not by the foreign nations. This, btw, is not a unique situation for agriculture--it is a general pattern of US trade policy, it seems.
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