Earthquakes are much too large a movement to worry about. Ordinary mechanical vibration can be enough to cause long runs of wire or pipe to chafe, e.g. the regular shaking from a washing machine's spin cycle.
=BF=BDSo,
geez are you incapable of just calling state farm and ask?
I pasted the reports of people who couldnt get homeowners because of K&T yet you ignore these posts.
just HOW EXACTLY does one prove wiring which has been almost totally buried in walls for a 100 years is in good condition? a electrician would have to open walls to check the condition of the wiring.
one more little thing, notice its called knob and tube, the wires go thru the tubes when wires have to pass thru framing. specifically ceramic insulators
this was done to prevent overheating of wires to cause a fire,
now doesnt it make sense that insulation could also cause a fire?
i bet you have K&T covered with insulation..........
and are burying your head in the sand over this as a known hazard
RE: Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings
Posted by Vermonster (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:45
We were unable to get homeowners insurance with knob and tube energized. Agreed to de-energize circuit and update. Policy is through Vermont Mutual. VT
Not all insurance companies deny coverage to all K&T wiring, but many insurance companies do prohibit all K&T wiring. It's more commonly prohibited in newer areas where only a small fraction of the housing suppy is old enough to have K&T.
Underwriting guides are generally confidential company documents, you probably won't find them posted on line, and I'm certainly not about to violate any contracts by posting excerpts, but I assure you, they do exist, and many insurance companies really do prohibit insuring homes with K&T wiring, enough that it has become a serious problem in some markets.
On the other hand, many insurance companies rely on agents to report whether a house has K&T or other prohibited conditions, and if the post- insurance inspection doesn't catch it, a house with K&T can get insured despite the prohibitions.
Once it's insured, the policy generally won't have an exclusion for damage caused by K&T wiring, it's an underwriting issue, not a coverage issue.
DISCLAIMER: I am not your insurance agent.
=EF=BF=BDSo,
hey thanks!!!
do you agree insurance companies are more pickey today about home condition?
like poor sidewalk trip hazards, bad roofs, rotted porches, lack of railings on public steps leading to homes.
if i were a insurance company i wouldnt want to insure something that was a obvious hazard.
thats akin to insuring a repeat DUI driver. if they get coverage it naturally costs a lot more
are:
Repeating: Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with insulation? Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring?
I looked at a few links and didn't find either. Just some opinions based on who knows what.
Where is insurance actuarial data on fires caused by K&T. The insurance company in Maine didn't produce any.
IMHO insurance limitations on K&T are just the latest form of redlining.
Why are electricians on this newsgroup far less paranoid about K&T than you are?
Problems are likely to be at soldered joints. I have seen 2 failed solder joints (one in K&T) - both were "cold joints" - defective when made.
I have seen the Carter circuit a couple of times and it seems to come up occasionally on this newsgroup. I suspect it was once compliant, but I don't know. Wiring practice has changed a lot. No one has ever said definitively it was or wasn't once compliant. Anyone know any really old electricians?
It was first made illegal in 1920 Nec 380.2 which required three way and four way switching to be done only in the ungrounded conductor, but of course it continued to be used to save $$$
it would be interesting to try to hire the electricians here to inspect K&T.
exactly how does someone inspect something they cant see?
a bad solder joint could be about to start a fire but be invisible buried behind plaster wall........ the electrician could be on the hook for fire costs, having said it was safe.
my big issue with K&T is the lack of boxes, and underpowering.
typically K&T had one outlet per bedroom. today that leads to tons of extension cords, and they are a definite hazard. I have seen some real hack jobs with extension cords in such rooms......
are:
More FUD. Where is your data on fires started by K&T.
There may or may not be boxes. I presume underpowering means not enough outlets.
Not enough outlets is not unique to K&T. If there are not enough outlets add more.
Still missing: Links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with insulation. Links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring.
All connections in properly installed K&T are accessible.
How interesting.
The other question, I suppose, is whether the NEC was adopted in a jurisdiction when a house was built. It was common for jurisdictions to have their own codes. I looked up an article in an IEEE newsletter that said heavy pressure to adopt the NEC (and one of the major building codes) came in the 1960s.
But the 1920 date for the NEC should be an early landmark. Thanks.
just how, have you ever wqorked on or around K&T apparently not because connections were generally made in walls and latheand plastered over. no boxes at connections in most cases.........
and before you claim i dont know, do note one of the posters troubleshooting this problem reported making a buch of holes in walls looking for a bad connection.
hey cool, heres a quote paste from this site:)
More importantly perhaps, some insurance companies are now refusing to provide home owners insurance on houses with existing knob & tube wiring.
It can not be run in or under insulation. This often happens when outside walls or attics are insulated. Old wiring was installed in open spaces so that it would stay cool. The insulation around the wires was made of rubber that burns at a relatively low temperature. If surrounded by house insulation, the wires will not cool and could heat up enough to burn. It is important that if an old house is to be insulated that any knob and tube wiring be re-wired first.
I did say "properly installed" knob and tube wiring.
I had a beach house with "properly installed" knob and tube wiring and all connections were easily accessible.
Why would you have ANY connections inside a sealed wall unless they were at the site of an outlet? Are you some sort of hack who splices together short lengths of scrap wire to save a small amount of money on materials while wasting an enormous amount of money on labor to do it?
I think everyone here agrees that K&T should be replaced. Just not TODAY, like you seem to indicate.
The points you make about the problems with K&T are valid and anyone buying/selling a house should be aware of them. We get it.
Thanks
I have seen homes wired with K&T where connections were some distance from lights and outlets. fact is to provide spacing K&T uses they cant be right together, their typical distance must be 6 inches.
so the wires to the device are soldered on near a knob, but no easy way to see the solder job.......
my house is mostly BX it was built in 1950. in the middle of the night i turned the light on to find my lost pillow and got a shower of sparks from the fixture right on the bed. scared me a lot.
upon disection found the insulation to the light socket failed touching a grounded fixture.
needless to say all those fixtures were replaced, this about 10 years ago.
I've never found ANY connections that weren't in an attic or basement. In fact, there would be no reason to make a connection in a wall behind plaster and lath, any more than there's a reason to do it with romex.
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just how, have you ever wqorked on or around K&T apparently not because connections were generally made in walls and latheand plastered over. no boxes at connections in most cases.........
and before you claim i dont know, do note one of the posters troubleshooting this problem reported making a buch of holes in walls looking for a bad connection.
if they are properly fused, there's no heat . So one cannot blame the insulation. One can only blame over fusing or no fusing. And in these cases, they'll overheat and burst into flames with or without insulation. And as a matter of fact, with fire retardant cellulose, they'd probably be safer, because they wouldn't have access to oxygen.
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