google knob and tube fire risk to confirm I am right.
Homeowners insurance underwriters may refuse to cover it As existing K&T wiring gets ever older, insurance companies may deny coverage due to increased risk. Several companies will not write new homeowners policies at all unless all K&T wiring is replaced or an electrician has certified that the wiring is in good condition.
I have a ton of references if anyone is interested, it appears most homeowners insurance companies today wouldnt insure a home with K&T
Actually the automotive analogy is a good one *for* replacing K&T. Most cloth covered auto wiring is no longer suitable for service and will crumble if disturbed. Granted, that was being phased out by the mid-50's but then again most K&T was installed prior to that. The only thing making it not a perfect argument *for* replacing K&T is that an automotive environment is much harsher on the insulation than is the inside of a wall.
I'm not one to replace things for the sake of replacing them (I did salvage the harness in my '55 STudebaker by judicious patching) but old cloth covered auto harnesses are something to be concerned about. You might find one that is still OK but I would bet that most that still remain will not be so if one disturbs it significantly.
Aren't there currently hundreds of thousands of houses or more with K&T wiring which are being bought and sold regularly? Considering that you NEED insurance if you have a mortgage, if Haller had any credibility, they would have all been rewired by now.
homes remain in families sometimes for generations. takes a long time to rewire every K&T install......
now since you havent bothered to goggle, too lazy i guess while you just prooclaim you know..... check out this link it details homeowners troubles with K&T and has many reports of being unable to get insurance without rewiring...
please no futher comments till you do your homework:)
Homeowners Insurance and Knob-and-Tube Wiring... clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by Jerry_in_OC_MD (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 16:55
We had the home inspection on the 1920 "Dutch Colonial Revival" that we are in the process of purchasing. The Inspector had a lot of concerns about the knob and tube wiring in the house. Some, but not all of the electric is updated. He recommended that we (or preferably the seller) have the wiring inspected and safety tested by an licensed electrician before we take possession of the house.
He mentioned that it might be tough to get a homeowners policy with the electric in it's current state. Has anyone else had difficulty getting an insurance policy for their home because of knob-and-tube?
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Posted by homemaker (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 18:11
Here in Ontario, if you have an existing policy, most insurers will cover a newly purchased home with knob & tube wiring, and give you
30-60 days to disconnect and replace it. This is a fairly recent change, for a couple of years, it was nigh on impossible to get insurance for any house with knob & tube unless it was with a high risk company.
First time home buyers are having more luck these days, but it often means wearing out your dialing finger. Having an electrical certificate stating that the wiring is safe and adequate and also advising what percentage of the wiring is knob & tube may help.
If you have home insurance now, check with your current broker to see how your company deals with knob & tube issues.
Hope this helps.
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Posted by joed (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 19:00
Here in Ontario I know of at least one person who was forced to replace their K&T or their insurance would not renew.
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Posted by homemaker (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 21:49
I should have been clearer. Most insurers here will not take on a home with knob & tube, or keep an existing property with K & T unless it is disconnected and replaced within 30-60 days. The only exceptions I know of have been elderly folks who really don't use much power and tend to have no computers, VCR's, microwaves, and who live much more simply than those of us with all kinds of fancy appliances and toys. Electrician's letters advising that the wiring is safe and adequate for the senior have satisfied many insurance companies. Makes it tough for those buying the house if it's sold though.
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Posted by bas157 (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 22:06
When I bought my house, USAA (insurance company) wanted to see the home inspection report, which pictured some knob and tube wiring. They wanted it replaced until I showed them better pictures which clearly show the wiring was just a few pieces and the knobs, obviously hooked up.
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Posted by HappyCthulhu (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 12:09
We have knob and tube in our 1926 Tudor and never had any problems with getting insurance. We use State Farm. They never asked to see the inspection either. Knob and tube wireing is usually not a problem as long as it is in good shape.
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Posted by kennf (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:21
Other than insurance, the other problem with K&T is that you aren't supposed to insulate over it. So if you want to insulate the attic better than 1920s standards, you may be out of luck.
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Posted by Vermonster (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:45
We were unable to get homeowners insurance with knob and tube energized. Agreed to de-energize circuit and update. Policy is through Vermont Mutual. VT
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Posted by sharon_sd (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 6:46
Our (Ontario)insurance company has not asked us to change out the knob and tube that remains, and their rep has seen it. What they did require was that we remove the line from our oil tank to the furnace that ran under the concrete basement floor and replace it with a line on top of the floor.
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Posted by NancyLouise (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 8:01
We have a 100 year old home. When we recently switched insurance companies, during the inspection one of the first questions the inspector asked was if there was any K & T wiring. Luckily there wasn't. It is a very real safety concern. I believe it may be more difficult to get insurance because of it. Perhaps you can have monies taken off the asking price of the home to get the home's wiring up to code. It can't hurt to ask. NancyLouise
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Posted by Mom1993 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 15:00
We own a 1920's house, had all original K&T wiring. Amica (who we have used for 15 years) wouldn't insure the house - Fireman's fund would. We are replacing almost all of the original electrical...Good luck!
. What grounded surfaces are there near the screwshell?
If you find the splices, you have probably found the bad connection. The way I read your post you want to make the K&T circuit a 'proper' 3-way. The circuit could also be rewired with Romex as several have suggested.
The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) are:
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a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)
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or
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the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".
Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you must have better information than Illinois had.
Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but you must have better information than the insurance company had.
I am really just beating a dead horse now. The suggestion to replace it is, of course, the best solution.
From what I have read in the last couple of days, you can repair an existing K&T circuit if it met the code requirements at the time. So if BETA had a "proper" 3-way switching arrangement and a broken hot wire, the way I see it, he could just butt splice a new piece of wire in it's place. You can still use K&T to repair K&T.
I don't think the switching arrangement we are assuming BETA has was ever code compliant so it would not be legal to repair it.
One other thing BETA should consider is that the neutral wire could still be in use. And splicing a neutral together that is still in use can cause dancing. :)
Excellent point. I have actually bought 2 in the last year that had K&T and although i rewired them, i was never even asked about the wiring. And yes, they did ask when they were built.
Ok, I will do some reading of those links. BUT, i don't really see where that changes my experience of having never been asked about wiring. Sounds like the people being hassled by insurance companies about K&T wiring need to find a new better reputable company.
In Ontario, some insurance companies make a big deal out of K&T, others are more reasonable.
The Electrical Safety Authority is the responsible agency and has published a lot of information regarding K&T wiring in response to insurance company actions within the province.
A favourable inspection by ESA carries a lot of weight with the more reasonable insurers.
They ran it on insulators, exposed. Tubes and loom were used where it went through wood or needed protection. I'm sure many people who couldn't get insurance had K&T that was screwed with over the years and deemed unsafe. That doesn't mean that ALL K&T is in poor condition... Except in your mind
to prevent chaffing. just like why we have to staple romex within a certain number of inches from a box. Both rediculous unnecessary rules. I guess frequent earthquakes could rub the wires over a couple centuries.
Ok, so i've read the first 10 links on the AOL search you linked me to. Only ONE (1) sited an insurance company by name. The rest only speculated that "some" insurance companies "may" refuse coverage on K&T. One other link stated a state farm user that wasn't questioned about the wiring. So, i guess there's still no documented proof that "insurance companies deny coverage on K&T wired homes". I can't imagine the other 90 hits being any different than the 10 most popular.
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