Home ac having problems - freon doesn't seem to be circulating

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wrote:
snip

have to take issue with a few things. The first one is the scare tactic about price and availability. Price wise r22 costs exactly $1.11 more per pound than r410a. Availability wise, r22 will be produced until 2020 although at a reduced rate as you said. How much the price will actually go up is based on a guess but Im willing to bet as r22 goes up r410a keeps pace.
The second one is the quantity of r22 in a 10 seer system vs r410 in the new minimal seer rating of 13. The 22 system held (arco aire) for instance 4.25# of r22 where as the new unit of the same size (2.5 tons) holds 4.10# of r410a. Not even close to half. The cost differential to fill both systems is less than five dollars.
That being said, sometimes I read some of the stuff here and wonder, is it mere ignorant misrepresentation or borderline dishonesty. I also wonder if sometimes when these sales pitches are given if you can actually see the sales mans nose growing.
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Too bad you couldn't cut it in the resi market, and had to resort to doing commerical/industrial in a union shop.
For now, the price of R22 has not yet started going up.... but its coming, you know its coming. Think back to the R12 phase-out. This is the same scenerio, but on a much larger scale.
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Steve wrote:

You could be partially correct. I have met a large number of Commercial HVAC techs that have switched to the light inductrial and residential markets. I also note some new licensing requirements coming in the upper states. They are going to redo licensing to :
(1)Masters    Cannot touch any work, but has to be in direct contact         with journeyman at all times on the job..Cell phone is         acceptable. Cannot bid jobs, but is under a contractor.
(2)Journeyman    Can do work and direct Apprentices and helpers.
(3)Apprentice     must work under Journeyman
(4)helper    Can only do menial chores, Wash van, Sweep floors and          not allowed to touch contract work.
There are also 4 vocation licenses. #1 would be a plumber under its own subgroup. #2 would be HVAC at one of the above levels. #2 would be Hydronics at one of the above levels #3 would be refrigeration at one of the above levels.
Which means in certain cases you would have a large number of licenses. It does appear to try and kill off the one man operations. The Unions under the Obama administration have been the drafters of this muck.
However...HVAC licenses will place up to 40 gallon water heaters for install and repair in our bailiwick. Any water heater above 40 gallons will require a Plumbers license.
Last but not least the Feds seem to be involved in eliminating the EPA licenses all the way up to Universal. For the replace system there will be a $280 filing fee and a $300 a year renewal and possibly more. If anyone has better data on any of this please post it. *******************************************************

What might increase it more is the fact that the 3 substitutes may be pulled from the market due to some international treaty that either has been signed or is waiting to be signed.

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wrote:

you find it challenging thats cool too. Yeah I know im just a lowly commercial/industrial union tech. Not quite as prestigious as a residential service mechanic but it pays the bills.

Its hasnt gone up? Okey dokie. Sorry Steve I wasnt trying to ruffle your feathers but your nose is growing.

use scare tactics to convince a customer to buy a new system for 5-15G's or what ever you charge when they have a bad compressor or something. Im all for energy efficiency and the like but sell it as such and if your real honest about it you would point out the pros and the cons of the newer equipment and let the customer decide whats best for his wallet. Thats how I operate
Even if 22 went up to a grand a 30 at that point you just use one of the drop in's for 22 at a much cheaper price. Like we did and still do with older r12 systems. We dont sell a new walk in or reach in because the old r12 system has a leak. We fix the leak and convert it to 414b or what ever you flavor of choice is. We will do the same thing down the road with 22 systems. I can just see it. you walk up to a million dollar chiller and you tell the customer OMG its got a leak, you need a new chiller. Yeah thats gonna fly. Not.
One more thing about this manual J stuff. I bet you a hundred bucks that you could have five manual J's done by five different companies and have five different results and every one of them would say they are right and the others are wrong. The old garbage in garbage out thingie. I mean really, theres like a 10% fudge factor built in to the damn thing so it isnt an exacting science now is it.
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On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 20:53:17 -0400, The King

    You wanna talk 'difficult' ? I talked to a place today that makes custom one-off equipment that does things like :
    Maintains high flow volume ( 500 GPM + ) process water at 0.5 C. Can you say 'on the hairy verge of becoming slush' ?
    Maintains other process high volume chilled flow water within 0.2 F precision of setpoint.     Does it LARGE ( is making a hundred tons of ice a day 'large' ? ), and in HOSTILE environments ( this ain't no little pansy-assed lab equipment living in a carefully controlled environment, this shit gets beat up by illegals all day every day ).
    Does it all while maintaining FDA-level 'food grade clean' EVERYTHING.
    I was impressed.
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In the R-12 run up, the price went up for a few years. Eventually, the replacement blends come out on the market. And then the equipment starts to die off. As the equipment dies off, the demand goes down, and that affects the market and pricing. There is still R-12 equipment out there. I know, I service them.
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The King wrote:

The latest word I have on R22 is that this year only 20% of what we normally use will be available. The large producing companies are indicating that the price will skyrocket and that it would be a good idea to purchase large quantities in advance. I suspect the companies are trying to create a shortage to drive prices up. Also it turns out that R134A is being scheduled for a phaseout in the future also. R410 and a few others are also to be replaced. It was stated that Carrier already has a replacement in their research facility. The socalled replacements will consist of HFO's and CO2. This information is merely being repeated and the source is a Johnstone Supply Training person.
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wrote:

    Welcome to the future of the cooling industry, after Brobama gets done 'reinventing America' for us.
http://tinyurl.com/ldjb2o
On the bright side, at least it's a 'green' job .....
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On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 19:58:56 -0400, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:

came along because its a greenhouse gas. The Europeans are phasing out its use in autos beginning next year and banning it all together by 2017. Its old news. They wont be happy til were back to using ice.

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The King wrote:

I recover every ounce of refrigerant I can. If it's not contaminated, I'm going to reuse it. Somewhere I have a 124 lb R22 recovery cylinder. I take a little whiff and if it doesn't burn the hair out of my nose, a good set of filters and some Acid Away makes it usable.
TDD
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The Daring Dufas wrote:

Why don't you just plastic bag it and sell it to your neighbors kids? The world has a scarcity of whoofers. If they whoof it, it won't damage the ozone and everybody wins. Won't have to buy carbon certs for it either.
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Alexander wrote:

I think they're called "huffers" and most of them get off on "toluene" which is in the paint that they huff. When the refrigerant in a system gets burned, it takes on a horrible searing odor that is what was used during WWI as a chemical weapon, phosgene gas, better known as mustard gas. If you start brazing connections on a refrigeration system that has not had the refrigerant completely removed, you will get a very unpleasant whiff of phosgene gas. Some people get off on huffing Freon but it can be very deadly. The HVAC supply housed have been selling special locking caps for refrigerant service valves that may help stop people from easily getting refrigerant from outdoor equipment.
TDD
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The Daring Dufas wrote:

Your customer will balk at the price of Schrader locks. As for the problem of internal contamination in the system from brazing, will that is why the manufacturers and professional practices require nitrogen purging. The oxygen deprivation from inhaling a cloud of cooling gases has long been a problem. But whoofers cherish the synaptic cross firing created by dying oxygen deprived braincells. One of the most dangerous of these gases is R410, as it hangs on the ground and legislation is being enacted to insure all equipment rooms using this gas has an alarm system and automatic venting. As for the huffers... I will leave that to others. I deeply suspect something of that nature is infecting the political atmosphere in Washington DC.
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wrote:

    Just read the Huffington post and you'll know it's true :-)
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Alexander wrote:

Geez! Who can keep up with the sub-nomenclature that describes all the different addictive behaviors of those who are trying new and creative ways to kill themselves. Years ago, I worked with a guy installing the control and power systems for the first indoor cooling tower in this area. We also did the same for the screw compressors and one of the things I installed was a stationary refrigerant leak detection system. I believe R22 was the refrigerant being used. Enough of that stuff can displace the air in a room and send one to HVAC heaven. Where does an AC tech go when he dies if he is an evil man? Hmmmm, I'll have to think about that one.
TDD
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The Daring Dufas wrote:

He is reincarnated as Paul and creates a newgroup of his peers.. ;-p

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I think that plan will be a good money maker.
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On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:36:09 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

And illegal.
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The King wrote:

Perhaps it should be a Union money maker?
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Yeah, that's a factor I've been hearing, the efficiency is supposed to be a lot better on newer units.Of course, due to minimal usage, I've never had a power bill over about $130. That's in the dead of summer. Never running it, the bill's around $70. So at most it's costing me around $2/day to run.
The other consideration is this tax break that's currently available, and a modest credit from the power company.
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