Central AC Advice

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xModem wrote:

Was the difference statistically significant? At what level of confidence?
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You'd have to ask the people who did the survey.
I think I know where you're going with this. However, I am simply using the survey as a rough guide to what other furnace owners have to say with regards to reliability of the brands listed. 30,000 is a significant sample.
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Yeh, so significant that it only included 12 brands! LMAO
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30,000 surveys on 12 brands says a lot for those 12 brands, despite your hand waving.
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Yeah, how many of those 30,000 homeowners do you think has any knowledge about HVAC systems? LOL
You can take that survey and flush it down the toilet where it belongs!
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Do you ask your customers if they have any HVAC knowledge before you will render service? Don't be so bloody stupid.
If a person's heating system doesn't work, it doesnt' work. It matters not what the problem is. It's a non-functioning system. More importantly, it gives none of the surveyed systems any advantage in the survey.

You keep trying to ridicule it, and you keep failing.
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Hey Dipshit, it doesn't take a genius to pick up the phone and say "hey, my HVAC system failed, can you come out and fix it"? On the other hand, it does take someone with HVAC knowledge to KNOW *why* their equipment failed! There's a difference, I'm sorry you're to ignorant to see it.

Which makes the survey a JOKE!!! They don't know *why* their equipment failed. It most likely was caused by an installation issue vs an equipment design failure. Do you know no anything about the HVAC industry?

Doesn't mean anything, just like the survey... so flush it down the toilet!

Nope, you're just to ignorant to actually comprehend the FACTS!!!
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Let's assume you are right, and that most or all of the failures that the consumers reported were due to installation issues.
Why did American Standard have a lower rate of installation issues than Carrier? Why did Goodman have a higher rate of installation issues than Trane?
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Tim Smith wrote:

with supposed good installers. Were they high cost components or minor low cost components?
By the way, the installers work for the contractor that sells you the equipment, unless it is bought by bypassing the HVAC contractor.
I doubt that you will ever give up your belief in Consumer Reports, however in this case when it comes to heating & also central air conditioning the survey methodology is rather meaningless. I know this from many years of seeing why various components fail, and the majority of the time it is not the equipment's fault.
Learn enough about HVAC so you can pick the right contractor because that will be the main determiner of a lower repair history on the HVAC equipment you buy.
http://www.udarrell.com/air-conditioning-total-heat-enthalpy-latent-heat.html
http://www.udarrell.com/proper_cfm_btuh_duct_sizing_air_conditioning_systems.html
I care about the uninformed buyers, NOT the hyped up marketer's; I am retired & do NOT sell equipment or install it! Kjpro knows what he is talking about on this particular CR survey issue. - udarrell
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Why did my drill bit drive 100 screws before it broke?
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The point that keeps going over your swelled head is the fact that their system doesn't work. Period. It doesn't matter WHAT the problem is - the fact is they have NO HEAT. There's just as much chance of a faulty install on furnace A as furnace B. Good systems can be installed by shitty tradesmen, and bad systems can be installled by good techs.

You obviously have no clue as to what a survey is.

Withe regard to surveys, you wouldn't know a fact if it screwed you all night long and made you breakfast in the morning.
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Group 1 75 units of brand A was improperly installed. 25 calls were made to this group.
Group 2 75 units of brand B was improperly installed. 50 calls were made to this group.
Group 3 75 units of brand A was correctly installed. 50 calls were made to this group.
Group 4 75 units of brand B was correctly installed. 25 calls were made to this group.
Who wins the survey? Is the survey accurate? Does it help you in determining which brand is better?
What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?

I know what a survey is. I also know that this particular survey is nothing but a JOKE!!!
Where have I heard that before?

Sorry, but you're the one who doesn't understand the real facts that surround this whole conversation.
Till you learn something about HVAC, I'd recommend that you not argue with people that know what the fuck their talking about!
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Wow, that's one huge sample. Almost as big as the CR one. Bwahaha.

You're obviously out of your element with regard to surveys.
Let me see if I can dumb this down for you.
You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the lower rated furnaces than the higher ones. Doesn't matter if the installers of the lower rated systems are fucking morons with a toolbox consisting of a hammer and tin snips. Installation is all built-in to the results. If a wide number of installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then STATISTICALLY, you're more likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed more problems for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems are more likely to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is NOTHING you can say that can change that.
These statistics are incontrovertible. Your arguments from incredulity and arguments from authority (look those up), frantic hand waving, and general attempts at obfuscation mean nothing. You can't change the FACTS.
I fully expect you'll come back with more "I know what I'm talking about.", "You don't know as much as me.", "This survey is bullshit." remarks and other egotistical chest thumping. All of them utterly meaningless in the context of this survey.
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I knew you'd miss the point...

Are you talking about yourself again?

Please tell me why the Tempstar is #11 while Heil is #7
Tell me again how these two brands are different...

Which are inaccurate... but you don't care, Trane was towards the top and that's all that matters to you.

You didn't understand my example...did ya? It's ok to say no... as I already know you didn't.

If you call bullshit FACTS, then by all means, more power to ya. But, if you want true results, you better wise up and re-read this thread over and *try* to comprehend it.

If you want to believe a bullshit survey, then more power to ya. But, if you want to portray it as an asset, then it shows you for the idiot that you are.
You can drill it all you want, but a true professional knows BULLSHIT when they see it!!!
There's no getting around it...
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The point is, your sample size is laughable.

Evidently, since you're too fucking stupid to understand.

No idea. Ask the 30,000+ people across the country who replied to the survey.

Arguing with the results. Pointless and pathetic.

I understand you have no idea what a significant sample size is.

Just as I said: more self-centered chest thumping.
At the end if the day, I'll take the results of 36,181 owners of the equipment, to an outsized-ego of an installer with a vested interest in installing whatever he can get the maximum profit on.
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Do you not know how to make them numbers larger? I made them larger to fit your bullshit report (look above). Don't you feel pretty ignorant yet?

You better start looking in the mirror. You're about to be made into the biggest idiot that ever hit alt.home.repair (this includes Stormin Moron) and that's saying something!

You have no idea, because it's the SAME FUCKING EQUIPMENT!!!!!!! Same parts, same manufacturing plant, same employees, everything is the fucking same!!!!!!
So tell me how does 2 not equal 2?????????

As is arguing with a complete incompetent idiot!!!!!

I understand that you can't take my example and change the numbers, so I have done it for you!

Hey Dipshit, I'm not here to sell anything to anyone. Get that? You don't even know who the fuck I am or what the fuck I do for a living. You know absolutely nothing about me... just like that bullshit report shows/tells you nothing about which brand is better than the other.
Ask yourself these questions...
How old was each furnace? Was they the 'top of the line' or 'bottom of the line' equipment? Was each system maintained the same? Was each one installed properly? Do people have different ideas/standards of rating equipment? Did everybody on the survey understand each question and comprehend it the same? Did everybody on that survey get top quality service from their service provider?
Why did it only contain a few brands if it was so significant? Why is the same equipment rated differently?
Your survey is CRAP, complete BULLSHIT and will continue to be BULLSHIT.
You know very little about the HVAC/R industry, but you portray yourself as an expert. And the only thing you're an expert on is posting complete idiotic statements based on somebody else's survey. Unlike myself, I know this field, I have my own results and FACTS that you can't understand.
If you want to continue to be an ignorant jerk, be my guest. But you will be called on your bullshit if I read it.
It must really suck to not know anything! Have you looked in the mirror yet?
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Sure. You need a larger sample set. It's the ONLY way. You can't make the numbers "bigger" without surveying MORE PEOPLE.

Don't you feel pretty stupid yet?

More hand waving. LOL.

IT DOESN'T MATTER in the context of the survey, idiot.

You're the one who can't parse the data.

You must be twins. No one person could be so fucking stupid as to make that comment. You can't "change" the numbers.

I don't know what you do for a living? You clown, you've already said what you do for a living. You're an HVAC God. You've repeated it ad nauseam. Sadly, that doesn't mean you have any comprehension skills.

Repeating that doesn't make it true.

Zzzzzzzzzz....
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Did you even look at the new larger numbers in my example... guess not!

Yes in fact I do... I'm feeling pretty stupid for arguing with the incompetent.

How doesn't it matter, if you want accurate results? Tell me again how the same equipment gets ranked differently?

Just did in my previous post, are you to incompetent to find them?

I see you don't want to address any of the questions that make the survey a JOKE!!!!

Yep, you're still lost little pup. One day you might understand something, but for now, there's just no hope.
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It doesn't change the fact that group 2 and group 3 had more problems. Not every system that's installed sloppily will cause a problem. The clown that put my Amana in should be shot and pissed on. Hasn't caused any problems though.

No hope understanding your inability to parse the data.
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2 and 3, can you not read a simple little example? Geez, first I have to make the numbers larger, now you can't even read the data correctly! No wonder you're having problems understanding *why* the CR survey is BULLSHIT!

Still don't want to address the questions?
Here, I'll add a few more...
What if a manufacture was having a defect during a certain time period, but that defect was found and corrected? Does that change the outcome on the survey? Or what if the new equipment isn't the same as the equipment in the survey? Companies will often change a design that will show problems in a couple months or years down the road, what if you have one of these units? But wait, they corrected the issue... so, is their unit still trash?
How long do you want to drag this out?
The survey is a JOKE and *isn't* based on true facts. For that reason, you will *not* win this debate!
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