Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?

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It was pretty good when they used amphoras and fumarias. But then they severed the wine in these very pretty lead glazed cups and a Gothic night descended on Europe. Things (flavor) started looking up again in the mid-1600s when cork stoppers came into use. In the mean, time beer and wine saved Europe from the main diseases of ground water. The same function that tea served in the East.
Paul should check with the nearest ag consultant but my understanding is that nothing harmful to man can survive fermentation. All the same, you've been a naughty boy Paul. I know it wasn't your intent to bring about the downfall of Western Civilization (such as it is). You've got to be careful about unintended consequences. See that this doesn't happen again.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
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On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy wrote:

I understand that they also burned sulfur wicks in their casks much like adding sodium metabisulfite as many ( can't say 'all' - might start another flame war ) now do.
But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in the future ( .. so I won't start the world whining again ).
I will chech with the aggies. I have written gardentech.com ( the company that forced me to use their dust ) and am waiting their reply.
= Paul
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Sulfur candles were used before there was a written language. As luck would have it, SO2 is heavier than air. Sulfur wicks are still used to burn in barrels before they are stored empty although the trend is towards compressed gas.
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Billy
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Paul J. Dudley wrote:

Paul, since you are making wine I offer the following information.
"Organic wine" may be hazardous to your health - depending on the wine makers practices.
For example, if SO2 is not used, if the pH of the must is above 3.5, if there is extended contact with the lees, If cultured wine yeast and ML bacteria are not used then the probability of the formation of carcinogens is enhanced.
Here is a post I contributed to the wine making news group:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I always look for articles indicating positive health benefits of drinking wine and indeed there are many. I recently came across an article in "Practical Winery & Vineyard" by Robert Tracy with the heading of "Human health concerns associated with wine microorganisms" (pp 96-98).
The partial information I summarize below is NOT an attempt to start religious wars over technique or scare anyone but to raise some concerns that we as wine makers/growers should know.
Personally, I believe there are "probably" more health related issues in a can of soda than some of the material discussed below but perhaps we can make better wine if we are aware of some of these facts.
Summary and quotes:
"From a winemaking perspective, there are two types of compounds produced by wine microbes that have health implications for the consumer: biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate.Biogenic amines have been shown to cause negative physiological effects in allergic humans (such as headaches, nausea, hot flashes), while ethyl carbamate is considered to be a probably carcinogen to humans.Theprobablecarcinogenic properties of ethyl carbamate are based on studies with experimental animals, there is not direct evidence of it causing cancer in humans."
"The concentration and type of biogenic amines vary greatly in wines; however, generally red wines contain significantly more than white wines.Inaddition,thereappearstobeadirect correlation between elevated biogenic amines in wine, wine spoilage constituents (such as acetic acid, ethyl acetate, butyric acid, acetoin, and higher alcohol compounds), and malolactic fermentation."
Because ethyl carbamate is a probable carcinogen, it is becoming the focus of international regulation, and so its formation must be managed properly both in the vineyard and during the winemaking process."
"Even though both yeast and bacteria can generate precursors for ethyl carbamate formation, urea produced from wine yeast is thought to be the major precursor."
Factors that affect formation
"Throughout the winemaking process, a whole host of factors can influence the formation of biogenic amines including:
1)initialmicrobialpopulationspresenton grapes;
2)presenceofprecursoraminoacidsingrape juice;
3)ageingofwineonwitheryeastlees(surlie ageing) or lees following malolactic fermentation;
4)extendedgrapemaceration;
5)spontaneousmalolacticfermentationby indigenous lactic acid bacteria;
6)numberoflacticacidbacteriathatare decarboxylase-positive:
7)winepH;
8)concentrationofsulfurdioxide(SO2) following malolactic fermentation and during ageing;
9)winerysanitationpractices;
10)yeaststrain;and
11)finingpractices(finingwhitewineswith bentonite may remove biogenic amines).
Among these factors, it has been demonstrated that malolactic fermentation is the primary stage for biogenic amine formation during the winemaking process.
Ethyl carbamate formation is affected by the following factors:
1)arginecontentofgrapes;
2)concentrationofethanol;
3)nutrientadditionstomust,duringboth alcoholic and malolactic fermentaitons;
4)yeaststraiin;
5)spontaneousmalolactidfermentaionby indigenous lactic acid bacteria;
6) ageing wine on yeast (lees (sur lie ageing);
7)temperatureofiwneduringageingand shipment;
8)durationofwineageing;
9)winepH;and
10)wineerysanitationpractices."
"Recommendations to prevent formation of biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate
Biogenic Amines
if possible periodically monitor microbial populations on grapes to determine risk for biogenic amine producers.
if possible, assess concentration of primary precursor amino acids in grapes and must.
avoid spontaneous alcoholic fermentations and use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae that lack or have minimal decarboxylase activity.
Avoid extended ageing of wine on yeast or malolactic lees.
Try to minimize extended grape maceration.
Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentations and use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that lack or have minimal amino acid decarboxylase activitry.
Try to avoid higher pH wines (above 3.7) since they allow proliferation of Lactobacillus and Pediococcus.
When pH of wine is high, lysozyme can be added to remove the natural lactic acid bacteria.
Immediately following malolactic fermentaion and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria.
Maintan good sanitation practices during wine production.
Ethyl Carbamate
Avoid argine content of > 1000 mg/L in juice.
Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization of vineyards.
Periodically monitor nitrogen status of vines and soil.
Test nitrogen status of juice.
Avoid adding excessive nitrogen supplements; do not add urea.
Use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae that are known to produce low levels of urea (Premier Cuvee (PdM) or Lallemand 71B) when juice has a high arginine content.
Avoid ageing wine on yeast lees (sur lie ageing), which can liberate amino acids and proteins.
Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentatons and use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that do not have ability to produce high levels of citrulline.
Avoid elevated temperatures during ageing and shipment of wine.
If wines are going to be aged for an extendd period of time, it is advisable to periodically monitor ethyl carbamate levels.
Try to avoid higher pH ines (above 3.7) since they allow proliferation of Lacto bacillus and Pedioccus.
Immediately following malolactic fermentation and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria.
Maintain good sanitation practices during wine production."
I realize that amateur winemakers do not have the resources to monitor all of the above but we can control a good amount of them.
I encourage anyone who is interested in the topic to pick up a copy of the magazine.Thereare23 references cited at the end of the article.I did not quote the article in the entirety but tried to summarize the main points.
Paul
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Interesting article, however I suggest you check with http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/ecintro.html
and download the "Ethyl Carbamate Preventative Action Manual: English Language Version, PDF format". It is put out by U.C.Davis. I have no idea who Robert Tracy is or if he is just trying to spice up a story.
S U M M A R Y
Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization in the vineyard.
Monitor soil nitrogen status.
Monitor vine nitrogen status.
Do not use winter legumes as cover crops if soil nitrogen status is already high.
Be aware that nitrogen uptake varies strongly with different cultivars and especially rootstocks.
Monitor juice nitrogen status.
Do not add excessive nitrogen supplements.
Do not add nitrogen supplements routinely.
Do not add urea as nitrogen supplement.
Avoid juice arginine levels greater than 1000 mg/L.
When choosing among wine yeast strains, avoid those with high urea excretion characteristics.
Use malo-lactic bacteria with known characteristics.
Be aware that use of urease preparations cannot completely eliminate EC formation.
Be aware that must fortification may aggravate the problem of urea excretion by yeast.
Monitor EC levels of fortification spirit.
Avoid exposure of wine to elevated temperatures during storage and transport
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Billy
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Billy wrote:

All of the above true but does not detract or counter what I have posted.
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No it doesn't ;o)
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Billy
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Charlie wrote:

Captain
Billy
Tyne
Charlie
I gave the OP advice on how to obtain the answer to his question - NOT - NOT I repeat my personal opinion.
To summarize I have said:
1) Contact the manufacturer. If they say it is safe that does not mean that one should stop there. If they say chuck the grapes then by all means do it.
2) I suggested calling the viticulture experts at Virginia tech and or making the wine and sending them a sample for testing.
3) Contacting the OP's local agriculture extension agent.
YOU have given YOUR personal opinion based on nothing but shit house rumors and NOT science.
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:58:03 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"

Do you really believe that, Paul? Your stating this does not make it a fact. Lay off the koolaid, son.
Guess it boils down to who is paying for the "science" and who controls the dissemination of said "scientific" results?
Cui bono?
Charlie
"Do not put your faith in what statistics say until you have carefully considered what they do not say." ~~William W. Watt
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On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:09:58 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"

You mean the Land Grant Universities who are paid by Monsanto, Dow Elanco and Bayer to "test" and evaluate their latest carcinogens? NOT.
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Jangchub wrote:

Yep, they are all out to get us.
Sherwin
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wrote:

No, just out to get the money to fund their bullshit.
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Charlie wrote:

A good friend of mine raises bees on his urban property (fairly small) and has been spraying chemicals (wisely) for years. The bees don's seem to mind.
Sherwin
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Sheldon wrote:

I know people who apply Sevin that way. They do it because it is simpler than mixing up a batch for the sprayer. This is practical when you have a small plant or area to treat. Does it say on the label that applying the poweder is dangerous?
Sherwin
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On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:03 -0400, Paul J. Dudley

Hm. Maybe next time you'll read and follow the label directions?
As far as the half life of Sevin (not seven): http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/carbaryl.htm
Note that carbaryl is bound by organic matter.
Personally, I wouldn't touch these grapes.
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On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:03 -0400, Paul J. Dudley wrote:

Ok.. My neighbor uses Sevin dust all the time and swears by it. I just paid her a visit to see if she had any and she has a bag of GardenTech Sevin-5 - Ready to use 5% dust. Reading the instructions on the back shows that the preharvest interval (number of days between last application and harvest) for grapes is 7 days. I will find out what brand/strength was given to me. In the meantime I will write to GardenTech to see what they have to say and will post their advice.
= Paul
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On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:03 -0400, Paul J. Dudley wrote:

I would like to thank all ( even flamers ) for their replies. Too many to reply to all at this point ( persons who had questions ) and things have really gotten totally blown out of proportion.
I have written GardenTech and am waiting their reply. I've been to their site and now I know that the preharvest interval is 7 days for grapes. According to them: Q : How does Sevin control insects?     A: Sevin has a dual mode-of-action - it works on contact and through     ingestion. Sevin is non-systemic, which means it does not penetrate     plant tissue - it stays on the outside. After controlling the     targeted pest, Sevin is easily broken down in the environment. ( http://www.gardentech.com/sevin_fastfacts.asp#11G ) And I will write my local aggie extension service about my situation. Yes I made quite a few mistakes in my endevour as pointed out by so many. And yes I did receive a lot of good input and good constructive critism.
As far as polluting the world with my careless recklessness, I will correct my ways.
Moving to NC from MA I knew nothing about all this pesticide, herbicide and chemical fertilizer business. Here I found myself surrounded by crops of all kinds. The food belt.. And when those around me suggested Roundup around the house and anywhere my mower can't hit I thought they were crazy or lazy. Pesticides - what's a few bugs. I tried inventing my own pepper-soap solutions at first. And chemical fertilizers, no way.
I saw the farmers out there spraying all kinds of stuff on them fields. It scared me - if I can smell it - I'm ingesting it. Not long after I met my girlfriend and her daddy - an 85 yo farmer with hundreds of acre that he still farmed. I ended up helping him on his farm. I never knew so many chemical odors existed. But that man could make crops. And that man is 85 yo and still farming ( he still climbs the corral gate instead of swinging it open ). And it was there that I learned that down in these parts (Sandhills)them weeds and bugs will take over without the use of chemicals. And although I haven't totally lost my fear of them, I began to see them as a necessary evil. And when I check out veggies in the local markets - I know what I'm eating. Yes I wash my store bought veggies, but one never knows for sure.
I guess we can put this post to rest now. To the flamers - flame on. To those who actually wanted to help I thank you all for your input. If you had questions unanswered I appologize for not answering ( one person asked what type grape - not known. I got the vine 5 years ago from my neighbor who knew nothing about it. He was trying to get rid of his vine but gave me a cutting. It is a white variety, takes on a golden hue when ripe and very sweet. Very prolific producer and quite vigorous. Berries grow to about 5/8 inch when ripe, tightly packed clusters 4 - 8 inches in length. Early ripening - end of July to mid August. Fruity tasting wine when semi dry. Not sure what else to add ).
= Paul
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Basic premise I learned from the early things like VAX notes. With these electronic communications best practice is to assume you are writing to your best friend. Some of my friends are idiots and some are not. Discerning which is which is too much for me who just likes to rub or bend elbows on occasion. Still if I detect offensive I yield and help the other go by. Chinese phi lo stuff. Perhaps with a little help push :))
Bill
--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

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On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:20:17 -0400, Bill wrote:

Bill ... Did you work for DEC ? I started working at DEC in 82 at the Mill ( Maynard MA ). Worked from 82 - 96 ( got hit by the next to last wave of layoffs - before the were bought by Compaq ). Began as a mech designer - left as a Sr Info Sys Spec ( supporting VAX/VMS and then OpenVMS, Ultrix/UNIX ). Had a heart attack in 95 in the middle of an ALL-IN-1 trouble call - how rude. Got canned a year later with the rest of the burnouts and broken down misfits.
Jus' thought I'd ask...
= Paul
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At one time in the VAX heyday I could walk down a hall and see a expert in computer science. This In a large company from Delaware. My boss told me to take care of making sure folks about the world had access to RS1. Seems RS1 needed a $. So I was able to grant access to many folks and I pointed out that LYNX was available at the $. Lynx pre graphical interface to the internet. Mexican engineers flipped out in a joyous manner. Those DEC folks with physicists about did a great job in removing their need to be around. SAD. I ran two international newsletters until my bosss bosss etc bragged then a VP of the company said What shut me down as I was just the lowest level employee. I know what ALL-IN-one is dont miss it ;)).
Peter Mroz or Roy Beatty ring a pleasant bell?
Hope the heart is treating you well I know what CABG is.
Bill
--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

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