Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?

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Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole of the foliage and grape clusters. Here it is mid July and I still see some rather rich deposits of the dust sitting on the clusters. As these grapes ( type unknown ) are reaching ripeness they will no doubt be harvested within the next 2 weeks to make wine. Will the residual Seven dust pose any health threats at this point ? I've tried rinsing with a garden hose but to no avail. It is rather "caked" in some areas. There might have been some moisture on the grapes when I slung the seven dust causing it to do so.
TIA
Paul
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<http://www.backedbybayer.com/Bayer/CropScience/BackedByBayer.nsf/id/EN_G olf_Sevin_Product_Information>
Bill
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Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

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In article

www.afpmb.org/pubs/standardlists/msds/6840-01-104-0887_msds.pdf
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Billy
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No. Rinse any pesticide residue off and ferment dry. If it doesn't go dry, chuck it.
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On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:46:21 -0400, "Paul J. Dudley"

Don't belive most of this "safe" to eat after a month...etc. Sevin is a material which can penetrate the walls of cells and remain in the tissue of the fruit. I would not eat one grape on those vines. Do what you want, but I don't think you can wash out any sustemic uptake of Sevin.
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On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:03 -0400, "Paul J. Dudley"

I wouldn't eat them.
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Paul J. Dudley wrote:

I believe the normal time before harvest is seven days - BUT - you put on a heavy dose AND on the fruit. I would call the manufacturer and ask them. You might also consider getting a back pack sprayer.
In the future, consider Imidan. It is suppose to be more friendly to beneficals and it will kill the beatles. Also, the beatles do not eat the fruit so there really is no need to use the seven on them. I only use pesticides on the fruit if I see a heavy infestation of the Grape Berry Moths. The beatles eat the youngest shoots at the top of the canopy, not the older leaves or the fruit.
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On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:55:20 -0400, "Paul J. Dudley"

Okay Paul, if it can systemically enter your skin and cause harmful reactions, don't you know it will also be systemic on the cell walls of grapes?
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On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:22:28 -0500, Jangchub wrote:

Yes. But I was hoping that a 6 week duration might be long enough for the dust to break down in toxicity. My neighbor puts the stuff on all her greens ( collard, cabbage, turnip etc ). She pounces it on with an old nylon stocking. In fact, she does the same with her corn (at the silk end of the ear just as soon as soon as silk appears).
I know one thing. I'll never use Sevin on my grapes again. I used to use a Pyrethrin based pesticide ( Tiger Brand ) but haven't seen it at the store this year. It breaks down rather quickly and most veggies can be ingested within a week after it's use. The Sevin was given to me and I tried it. I made a mistake. All I want to know now is ( and I thought that was clear ) has enough time passed to degrade the dust enough or would it still be hazardous ( ... and would washing them be of any use ) .
In two weeks I will pick said grapes. I will attempt to wash the bunches by hand. Depending of that outcome, I will either prepare them for wine or if washing doesn't seem to remove the residue I will trash those bunches that won't wash clean.
= Paul
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You got to be kidding. Have people still not learned to have more respect for the environment and themselves?

As someone else pointed out, the grapes will have absorbed the Sevin. No way would I ever eat them or use them in wine. Sounds like that was a really expensive gift you got. Japanese beetles are easily knocked into a bowl of water to drown and sure when they're at peak you have to do it every day but it still beats poison.
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frinjdwelr wrote:

Unless you never drink wine, there is a VERY high probability that you have drunk wine that was grown using Sevin or Carbaryl 80 WP (liquid Sevin)

I have a backyard vineyard of 110 vines. I will give you a glass of wine each time you come out and drown them for me :-). I know a lot of commercial vineyards around here that will make you the same offer.
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On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:32:20 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"

Gallo wine is and has been a completely certified organic product for decades.
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Eeeeeh. The good web site - http://www.kenwoodvineyards.com / WE'RE CERTIFIED ORGANIC! March 14, 1996 Three of Kenwood's vineyards are certified organic: Kenwood Estate Vineyard, Yulupa Vineyard, and Upper Weise Kenwood wines are bottled they are in a range of twenty-five to thirty-five parts per million free sulfites.
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wrote:

There is a lot of mis-information in this thread, so I created an altered header.
Sevin is a certified Organic pesticide. It can be applied up to 7 days pre harvest. It is easily washed from fruit.
Here's a list of other certified organic pesticides.
http://scarab.msu.montana.edu/HpIPMSearch/Docs/ColoradoPotatoBeetle-Potato.htm
Here are the application guides from New York
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/cadusafos-cyromazine/carbaryl/carbaryl_2eeasia_902.html
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Changed the header again.
<http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
Poison is poison. Recognition of the web of life vs. being apart or separated.
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18619942?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSys tem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum>
Bill
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In article

http://scarab.msu.montana.edu/HpIPMSearch/Docs/ColoradoPotatoBeetle-Potato.htm
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/insect-mite/cadusafos-cyromazine/carbaryl
Yeah, I liked that bit about everyone else being so ignorant that the "correct" reply requried a separate header -- followed by stuff straight from the vendors' "toxins are good!" literature.
An organic gardener will never use Carbaryl no matter the brand name. I'm willing to stay open minded about its dangers or safety -- the evidence is not in its favor but all things are relative. The Tercyl brand (active ingredient Carbaryl) it is classified a class 1 toxin, and in Sevin, with less active ingredient, it is a class 2 toxin; and it becomes a Class 3 toxin for some other brands which have barely any active ingredient at all. It's toxic in every case with many high-dosage problems and fewer (but still serious) low exposure risks.
But whether or not the "last word" on the topic ever comes available, the main thing is that putting "organic" on a toxin doesn't mean organic gardeners would use it, no more than they'd slather aresenic on everything, which'd be perfectly "organic" to do. Sevin will kill beneficial insects, destroy the natural balance, and insure the return of harmful insects while the beneficial will be slower to recover.
Carbaryl might LEGALLY be used in organic produce fields but those sort of regulations are never about the best thing for the environment -- they're about how much you can get away with in a one-species commercial crop to maximize harvests and still sell the product at the higher price as organic. Organic gardening is about achieving a healthful balance that does away with even needing toxins, such as can't seriously be achieved in a one-species crop but certainly can be achieved in a balanced multi-species garden for which nature becomes an aid and not a hindrance.
The ACTUAL organic method of treating Japanese beetles for a specific example is to increase the entomopathogenic nematode and milky spore population in the soil, following label instructions very narrowly as the desireable microorganisms may not take hold if applied to soil willynilly under less than favorable conditions. These require very specific season and weather conditions to take hold, but once they do, the nematodes will take care of the grubs of a great many harmful species, and the milkly spoor will be a permanent fix that gets the Japanese beetle grubs specifically (it effects no other species at all). Japanese beetles will never recur, as they will when using pesticides like carbaryl which merely start the endless cycle of pesticide dependence.
The beneficial microorganism route is unbeatable, but it's not instant, and in the meantime, while waiting two years for milky spore to take care of Japanese beetles completely, the subsidiary organic methods begin with hand-removal when the insects are active on plants (they're great to feed a pet lizard or pixi frog or laying hens or ciclids such as an oscar). Planting something they love to distraction, like a Rose of Sharon or a dwarf crabapple in a very warm/sunny spot, centralizes the beetle-plucking. Further assistance can be from the parastic wasps Tiphia vernalis or T. popilliavora which get the beetle eggs, available from a number of companies and which some neighborhoods join forces to obtain for an entire block.
Traps can also be placed about for the adult beetles, which some field studies show take care of as many as three-fourths of the adult beetles in June and August, and work best at garden peripheries away from plants as they effectively draw the beetles out of the garden (whereas placed IN the garden the traps may draw adults from your neighbor's yard and a third or a fourth of those will get side-tracked by cool plants; also there'll be so many beetles in the traps that they'll stink of decomposing insects).
In the main, the microorganism route, with some hand-plucking until it takes hold, is all a garden demands to stay fully organic. And the best part is that works way better than carbaryl or any other toxin one might otherwise select.
-paghat the ratgirl

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On Jul 23, 5:55 pm, snipped-for-privacy@paghat.com (paghat) wrote:

MASSIVE SNIPS
OK, just so we are clear on this...I am NOT an organic gardener, I use chemical ferts all the time, but I do not use Sevin or any of its derivatives or any any other herbicide or pesticide on my garden or lawn. Yeah I have crabgrass and other damn things I cannot name- but when I give my daughter a cherry tomato, I know it's not been dosed with some damn crap.
Chris
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Good for you, that is the first step but pesticides come from the same petroleum base as the chem ferts. Your cherry tomatoes are more nutritious without the pesticides and healthier without their residues. Additionally, the easily accessible nitrogen from chem ferts is quickly transported and concentrated in the leaves of your crops, which and makes them desirable to insects. The quality of your crops will be similar to what you would get from hydroponics.
The next step is to grow your soil to grow your plants. Chem ferts are salts and damage the food chains (webs, whatever) in the soil. There is a symbiotic relationship between the flora and fauna in the garden soil and the plants that you cultivate which makes for more nutritious and healthier plants. If you already see a half dozen worms in a shovel full of soil, your garden is in good shape and you can keep it that way with alfalfa mulches, green manures (plants), and cover crops.
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This is utter bullcrap. When tried, they quickly fly away only to come back in 10 to 15 minutes and pick up where they left off. If one or two end up in the bowl of water you're lucky. And try that when there are hundreds of plants involved.
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On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:39:10 -0500, "Marie Dodge"

Really? I've used a mason jar or mayo jar with 1/2" of water in the bottom and a drop or two of dishwashing liquid. Maybe one out of 20 will fly away, but most will drop into the soapy water. I can easily catch 100 beetles in less than 15 minutes. Milky spore is a complete waste of money.
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