Re: The value of shopping local

Page 4 of 12  


Be that as it may, in the context of a discussion, saying what you mean, meaning what you say, conceding when you're mistaken, and generally recognizing the difference between fact and opinion, are essential prerequisites of credibility. IMHO 'discussions' with persons without credibility is useful only as a kind of sparring- a contest of rhetorical skills- but not really otherwise. Discussions with such persons who do not even possess significant rhetorical skills will often just degenerate quickly into something like, "All blue should be abolished, and anyone who doesn't realize that is a plain poo poo head!"
Saying something stupid (whether frustrated or not), and then defending that position just because it's yours (for whatever emotional reasons), is not a discussion IMHO. It's stupidity followed by rationalization. Threatening people who disagree with you is bullying, and I can't stand it. Never could.
As a kid, if I saw some bully picking on someone else, often before I could stop myself, I'd end up 'having words' with the bully. As an adult, I've taken down a couple of big ones over the years, usually on election for that purpose by groups to which I belonged.
Anyone with youngish kids is familiar with the recent efforts to reduce bullying, which identify permissive 'bystanders' as an essential part of the bullying cycle. In a community (something I believe in) we're better off if a bully is marked as such, and if persons who promote violence against others know that they do not have the support of the group, which is what these types really need. Silence can be seen by them, and later by history, as consent for their cruelty.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

As I've emllowed with time, my increasing reaction tothose who make their attacks personal is to say "Well, that's your opinion, enjoy stweing in your own juices, but as for me, I'm OH..."

I'm not saying that I perosnally approve of extremism/stupid statements, not at all. It's mostly that, as I've gotten older, I've become less reactive, mostly becase I don't have enough spare energy to squander. One of the side benefits is that it allows my more rational mind a bit more of a chance to step in and say, "hmmmm, now just *why* is that person saying something stupid, when it's clear that s/he is not a stupid person?"
My assessment of DOn (sorry to talk about you in th ethrid person, DOn, it's just the specific situation here) is that he is not a stupid person, but he sometimes peaks from emotion rather tahn from logic. As do we all, at some time or another. Many people react badly to that, but the longer I've corresponded here with him, the more I realize what's going on.
I've sometimes chided others (including Don) for resorting to name- calling, and IIRC, you were one of the recipients of such verbiage. Just as I assess you as being an intelligent person who sometimes says impulsive things, I also assess Don as being similar in that regard.
Noen of which changes the fact that, IMO, name-calling is childish and only closes off communication/idea-exchange.
Furthermroe, I've found, in general, that if one can get past all of that and pose a question which tries to address the *root* of the frustration that's causing the impulsiveness, things calm down and additional ideas are revealed.

Nothing wrong with that, and I've also had a strong tendency to do the same (often too strong for my own good), but I'm not convinced that this is the same sort of situation. Given that I'm not good with things social, I don't know how to explain the difference, jsut that I do see a difference (at least, on my better days ;) ) between bullying, and someone who is just blowing off steam. Again, tho', the main reason I'm (finally) learnign to even see the difference is, as I've said, I simply don't have enough energy to waste it on fighting/upsets/bellicosity/etc. any more than is absolutely necessary. IOW, it takes a whole huge hell of a lot for me to get really *angry* wioth someone - yeah, I get irritated, sometimes POed, but that usually lasts all of about 10 minutes, and is quickly forgotten. For me to *remember* I'm angry with someone takes a great deal of effort on the other person's part.
Obviously, that approach doesn't apply to, or work for, everyone, but I'm me, not everyone. <shrug>

As above. Meanwhile, I do hope you are not implying that I'm some sort of "violence enabler", becasue that would be rather an insult, becasue it would be defamatory (i.e., a flasehood, a lie, an attack).
Again, goign back to the opening statements, you said somethign about Don's "threats" (I assume you're referring to his thing about "culling th eherd" or some such similar statement). THat is not techinically a threat, becasue he did not say that any one specific person ought to be culled - it's acerbic, aggressive, an dmisanthropic, but I can't comndemn it because I've sometimes had similar fleeting thoughts. But I'm fundamentally a peaceful person who jsut sometimes becomes angry, even emotionally hurt, and distressed when treated ill by others, or when it seems as though other epople's orneryness is intentionally designed to put obstacles in to other people's paths. Maybe part of that is the Asperger's, maybe part of it is due to having been abused as a kid, maybe part of it is just being "milky in th efilbert", I don't kow, tbut th eessential fact is that, no matter how misanthropic I sometimes biol over into being, I *_never_* would intentionall harm another person, unless it was self-defense and even at that, only if I felt like I was backed into a corner and had no other option than to defend myself. As for Don, I've been reading his posts for a couple eyars I guess, at this point, and my impression is that, at the core, he's ntoall that much different. I'd feel mroe comfortable being in a room with Don and a bunch of guns, than I'd feel being in a room with most "average" people and a butter knife. Yeah, sometimes he says things that do sound kind of stupid - btu I can't think of anyone I know who has never said anything that sounded stupid. When he says something like that, maybe I'll say something like, "THat is beneath you to say that", or maygbe something a bit stronger (I've done so more than once), and I've doen the same with other poeple as well.
I just don't think he is quite the monster that it *seems* (intentionally or not) you're making him out to be, just as you're not the dwibble he sometimes amkes you out to be.
If I'm some sort of "permissive 'bystander' (i.e. violence enabler)" because of sometimes being able to see past the smoek'n'heat to try and find some light, well, all I can say is that the fefinition of the phrase IMO would require revision.
WHat cracks me up the most is that here I am, officially declared barely fit to participate in human society, saying this stuff to the people who are considered of good standing in society...I'm the "nut job", and yet, looking at "normal" poeple in society, I see so much insanity...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It's not aimed at anyone in particular. Provision of an safe arena is important for that sort of thing to flourish. That's what I believe, and it guides my actions.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke ----------------------------------------------------------- Isaac Davis: Has anybody read that Nazis are gonna march in New Jersey? Y'know, I read this in the newspaper. We should go down there, get some guys together, y'know, get some bricks and baseball bats and really explain things to them.
Socialite: There is this devastating satirical piece on that on the op-ed page of the Times, it is devastating.
Isaac Davis: Well, a satirical piece in the Times is one thing, but bricks and baseball bats really gets right to the point.
Woody Allen, "Manhattan"
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

THat's wha I thought, but I have to check these things becasue I really do not have "social instincts". OTOH, you cvould be lying, and I'd never knwo it <LOL!>, so I choose to assume honesty ;)

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Michael Bulatovich wrote:

In some discussions with Don with some things, I simply feel like I'm debating Christianity with a Christian missionary, hence my previous new thread.
BTW, I think I came across another code-bubble, but I forget where. But maybe it was just from a dream... (Michael, were you online here when I posted that? It was an architectural element, of a hotel in Vancouver, gone funky.)

Ah yes, the contortions of face-saving... One would think that someone in his fifties would more or less be beyond that-- assuming you're insinuating Don. Maybe it's face-saving and maybe he really believes it. Either way...

Bully for you.

Points well taken, and of course then there're the bullying-environments those who bully often live in... Can a community bully?
I wonder how to deal with a bullying government.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It's a personal choice of course, but helping them or "minding your own business" is probably how they'd prefer you do it.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The one about ridiculous things that buildings sometimes do? I remember *that* one...

Many of the regulars are telling me, "you can't take him seriously", or "he doesn't mean what he says", "he get's frustrated sometimes and says extreme things", etc, but my reading of recent history tells me I have to take people at their words, unless they themselves recant, or could pass for 'not responsible' in a court of law.
If I'm *not* to take hime seriously then I'm to toy with him in some kind of code like Virginia Vagina, or whatever that guy's name was a while back. I'm not really interested in that type of thing at all.
Ockham's razor says to asume the simplest explanation. There are many people who do mean the types of things he says. They're fairly common from what I can tell from the media. Why do I assume that he's not one of them? If he looks like a duck, walks like a duck,....

Maybe name can equal destiny. I've wondered whether my bully-thing comes from having an icon of my namesake over my bed as a kid...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Michael Bulatovich wrote:

Fair enough, although to be similarly fair, our whole culture, or at least many areas within our media channels-- the net, television, radio, film-- throw those kinds of thing around all the time. I've mentioned that phenomenon on here before years ago, if Don recalls, but he continued to exercise that freedom... although, freedom of course is a double-edged sword indeed... maybe even a lot more edges than just 2.
I was thinking that another potential problem with snarl-words, negative-labeling, "threats-as-metaphors" and so forth is that it might actually serve to progressively undermine the users' own rational thought processes-- shoot themselves in the foot-- by, in part, creating a kind of mental smokescreen around what exactly is going on and why and how, etc.. (At this moment, I recall the recent thread on the topic of 'evil' and 'evil-doer'.) IOW, on one hand, you have ad hominem attacking and the like, and on the other, by their constant usage, their subsequent effects upon the individuals' thinking and perceptions over time.
It may very well be that some have gotten so used to this kind of discourse, that it's corroded some of their thinking facilities... rather like a few drinks too many.

I'm chuckling right now, but see your point.
(Actually I'd read some of that thread in question and vaguely wished that more hetero women were more straightforward and humourous with that subject. Some women make me think they'd rather die than get laid or talk about sex. ;)

Sex? ;>

In fact, one can get into real legal trouble with uttering some kinds of things, at least in many contexts, and/but there are very fine lines to navigate very carefully in those regards. There's freedom-of-speech and then there's real intent-- and yet more reason, if you ask me, to consider very carefully the usage of negative labeling, threats as metaphors, and so forth.

An icon? In what sense? Anyway, I was referring to the "good for you" expression, rather than your name. :)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Tell me about it.

I know what you mean. Many have posed the same questions regarding the antisemitism of the nazis. Early on, one could easily reduce it to plain vanilla demagogery, in order to gain power by scapegoating a group of outsiders, but then eventually the 'race' obsessions began to jeopardize the very power gains made by their means. Was genocide the focal intent all along, or did the issue come to dominate their thinking the more they convinced themselves of its importance? They did go from "crazy like a fox" to "plain crazy" pretty quickly...

Talking in code.

Yeah, I know. Other kids might have had a Bobby Orr poster, but I had an orthodox icon (literally) hanging on the wall over my bed as a kid. It was of the Archangel (AKA Saint) Michael. He's often depicted with a sword (sometimes of flame), sometime also a balance beam(scales), with one of his feet on the neck or head of the devil, usually represented as a dragon or serpent, but sometimes in the more usual anthropomorphized form.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel)
What kind of role model is that for a kid? When I look back at my life so far, it would appear to have had an influence.....
--


MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote in message

Maybe it's more like getting soft?
"The brain is much more like our muscles than we had thought, even in the sense that specialized exercise affects different parts of the brain. Autopsies show that the brains of London taxi-drivers are peculiar. They have an enlarged hippocampus, which is the brain area used for navigating three-dimensional space. Here we see spatial abilities being developed without comparable development of other cognitive skills. To develop a wide variety of cognitive skills you need a wide variety of cognitive exercises."
(from http://tinyurl.com/yvwjly )
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

That was really unnecessary :p . We all have our various "icons" so to speak, representations of an idea or ideal of inspiration or aspiration, sometimes one specific one, sometimes various ones as time passes, as we reach different stages of life. I don't think it's either right, *or* good karma, to belittle someone's 'spirit guide' for lack of a better term - even if you don't like the person, it's just not good karma.
((OTOH, just on general principle, there are good reasons to not hang one's 'spirit guides' out naked in the glare of public opinion - people *will* try to take your personal power away by ridiculing them.))
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Not to worry at all. Another William Blake quote:
"Listen to the fool's reproach! it is a kingly title!"
St. Mike is just an image to me. So is Yosemite Sam.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

As long as it works for you - personally, tho', my own "guides" (for lack of a better term) remain things I am loathe to discuss, and do so only on rare occasions and generally with those who are knolwedgeable in these areas and can offer me an enhanced understanding.
ALl of which is terribly vague, I know. But anyhoo...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
[snipped for bandwidth]

I was the one who said the "frustration => extreme statements" thing - it was a speculation on my part, not a statement of fact. I do not know for a fact why Don might say something extreme.
I also didn't say or imply that "you can't take him seriously" - that is not the same thing as what I'd said. I don't know that you can or cannot. I'm probing in part to see how much I can take seriously, but mostly for my own reasons. THat's not the same thing as telling someone to not take someone else at his word - that isn't my call and I'm not going to pretend it is, but I also am not going to allow anyone to say or imply I'm saying it is.
I was only saying that as hominem attacks (regardless of who indulges) are *IMO* a waste of time. Obviously, a great many poeple disagree, which is, of course, their choice.
Don't set me up as being your enemy merely because I'm not going to say I'm Don's enemy. I have neither the time/energy, nor the inclination, for that sort of game. OTOH, I'm also not going to just lay down in the road and let people drive trucks over me.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Don wrote:

Michael and you are no worse or better than anyone else. How about you two just shake hands and call it a truce? How about setting good examples for William and others?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Instead of a truce, how about stop wasting your fucking time(s)? You don't agree - BFD. Go find better things to do.
R
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

A better idea.
--

<Don: Insert ad hominem here.>



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

That's what I'm doing.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I never took you for one or the other. As for being "set up", it's all in his head. You are free.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I don't know what more you need to substantiate the claim that you wonder something other than to make the claim. The only person who could possibly know what Warm Worm wonders is Warm Worm himself, and so he'd be the ultimate authority on his own wondering...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.